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Want good programmers? Then pay them.

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Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#351

Post by skrebbel »

kamaal wrote: post #239
skrebbel wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually when I explain this, I get downvoted by the HN Pythonista downvote mafia, but since you asked, I'll take that risk. In essence, I think Python is the mediocre features of all languages combined. It's a mish-mash of ideas, badly mish-mashed together. I don't want to use a mediocre language. - It's object-oriented, but not consistently so (len() anyone?) - It's object-oriented, but not really the standard libra…

Any attempt to compare with something else is going to make you disappointed. I am not a Python fan either, but Python has its own use cases for which its well suited. Its barrier to entry is low, and a lot of web frameworks are around. To give you small example. Today I just solved a problem by chaining sed and cat statements through pipes, whereas the guy next to me considers usage of anything apart from Java as a…

Ehh, are you saying that you can't compare programming languages for their merits? Then why aren't we all using COBOL today? Taste? I'm not so sure.

Also,

> Because your mind is trained to think in one specific language and its ecosystem,

IMHO, someone who can only deal well with one specific language and ecosystem doesn't deserve the name "programmer". My suspicion is that it's people like this who call themselves "Rubyists" or "Pythonistas" and identify with the language like it's a football club. It's a novice thing.

Personally, I'm very comfortable in C++, PHP, JavaScript and C#. Rather comfortable in Ruby, Python and Java. And by "comfortable" i mean "did a significant amount of real work", not "read a tutorial". Still, think Ruby is better than Python on nearly all fronts. I know for a fact that many others disagree with me, but I sincerely doubt that that's only because they're "trained to think in Python" and I'm not.

Except for the Pythonistas of course, but they're not programmers.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#352

Post by anurag »

throwaway1979 wrote: post #99
Apreche wrote: post #93

So true. I get calls from startup recruiters all the time. They don't seem to realize there's this thing called rent. They want to pay with equity. Might as well pay me with lottery tickets. Here's the minimum I need to even bother talking to a recruiter. That means that for me to accept the offer, it probably needs more than this. Six figures, 30 vacation days, full benefits, infinite sick days, convince me that you…

I'm really glad you mentioned "cute little puzzles". I am sick of them. I'm not really sure who has sufficient time to spend blazing the employer with feats of their programming prowess (I was going to say only undergrads would do that - however, many undergrads in top programs have little time to bathe). If this was big companies being stupid, I'd get it. The HN crowd ... some of the smartest hackers around do littl…

As others here have mentioned, the questions on the jobs page are explicitly designed to not be cute puzzles. If you don't have a Github profile or other code samples, these questions help us get a sense of how you think about programming. But they're also entirely optional - we should perhaps make this clearer. We'd love to hear from you if you're still interested in Stripe.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#353

Post by fleitz »

cletus wrote: post #264

The comparison to equity being getting paid in lottery tickets is apt (IMHO). Nevertheless there has never been a short of pioneering spirits willing to risk it all to strike it rich (just look at the gold rushes in the Dakotas, California and elsewhere). This is really the modern day equivalent. There was a thread here last year where people talked about their exits. A common story was "worked my ass off for X years…

Don't dig for gold, sell shovels.

30 days of paid vacation? This is easily achievable, say OK, normally for this position we pay $150K and 2 weeks vacation, so we'll cut the pay by 4% and give you an extra 2 weeks. Then it turns into $144K and 30 days.

Most people realize vacation costs money, those that prefer the cash to vacation simply wait til the end of the year and get cut a cheque for their vacation time.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#354

Post by fleitz »

moocow01 wrote: post #337
cletus wrote: post #264

The comparison to equity being getting paid in lottery tickets is apt (IMHO). Nevertheless there has never been a short of pioneering spirits willing to risk it all to strike it rich (just look at the gold rushes in the Dakotas, California and elsewhere). This is really the modern day equivalent. There was a thread here last year where people talked about their exits. A common story was "worked my ass off for X years…

"Never working more than 40 hours a week nor staying late? It just smacks of entitlement." Working 40 hours a week is considered being "entitled"? What is entitlement is employers pushing down pay rates by paying on salary while pressuring for extra hours without overtime. Fostering this culture and attitude just collectively serves to push down everyone's pay rate and detracts from the attractiveness of our field.

Then color me entitled.

I've had these arguments about how many hours a salaried employee should work. Despite the law saying 40, the lawyer was insistent that they could make me work any amount of hours.

The next two weeks I put in 20 hours a week. Then I explained to her that any means any, and that if they didn't like it they could terminate my contract, go spend a month finding a replacement and then explain to the client why they had materially breached the contract. Or they could be reasonable and let me work an amount of hours that is reasonable (and probably more productive).

Often when employers demand the most ridiculous of hours are the times in which they are in the poorest of negotiating positions.

Businesses use their negotiating position all the time to lower wages, it's not called entitled, it's called business.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#355

Post by mryan »

mryan wrote: post #97
skrebbel wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting! This is nearly a 180 degree opposite in the Netherlands. Companies can't find the talent they need inside (because they pay them too little, but ok), so they try to attract foreigners. Foreign "knowledge workers" also get tax benefits for the first many years, and many employers (particularly consultancies and larger OEMs) have people specialized in getting foreigners a worker's visa.

Ah, the "30% ruling". For those that haven't heard of this wonderful piece of legislation if means you only pay tax on 70% of your salary if you qualify as a knowledge migrant. Yes, you get 30% of your salary tax free. There are also other benefits, e.g. you don't pay income tax on dividends from your home country. It's not just consultancies and OEMs that will help apply for this - I work at a startup and I am class…

PS: I had someone email me to see if this post was serious. It is - if you know Django/Python and want to live in Amsterdam, please email me.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#356

Post by kstenerud »

horsehead wrote: post #213
throwaway1979 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really glad you mentioned "cute little puzzles". I am sick of them. I'm not really sure who has sufficient time to spend blazing the employer with feats of their programming prowess (I was going to say only undergrads would do that - however, many undergrads in top programs have little time to bathe). If this was big companies being stupid, I'd get it. The HN crowd ... some of the smartest hackers around do littl…

Maybe I'm just incredibly naive, but are fizzbuzz tests really that necessary? I have a hard time believing anybody could get an interview, let alone graduate with a BS in compsci, without being able to do something THAT simple ....

You'd be surprised...

But actually, fizzbuzz is just the bottom level. You also want to do basic coding exercises for whatever specific area you are hiring for, such as:

- Set up an extremely basic web app that lets the user enter a name and echoes it back to them.

- Make a sprite move across the screen.

- Display a 3d cube with different colors on each side and make it rotate.

- Make it play some music.

- Aggregate the data in this simple database.

- Here's some naive producer-consumer code. Make it thread-safe.

- Debug this code that has memory issues.

- Critique this (flawed) design.

- Update the CSS to make this page look nicer.

Basically, you never want to get into a situation where you've hired someone who has managed to talk his way through life. It's far less headache to just use a few sanity checks on every potential hire.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#357

Post by geebee »

cbsmith wrote: post #236
geebee wrote: post #232

I think a big part of the problem is that employers are competing only for the pool of existing programmers. This makes sense - the bigger problem (expanding the size of the pool) is beyond the influence of almost all employers (maybe the giants facebook and google can influence this somewhat). As a result, only very incremental progress can be made. If the standard salary is 70k, employers will balk at offering more…

It works both ways though. A programmer position that makes business sense at 40K might not make any sense at 90K. It's not like all companies need programmers regardless of price. If the price is too high, they can just go another way.

I agree - my criticism is directed only at those companies that claim that they desperately need programmers and can't find them at "any" price.

I understand that there's an implicit "reasonable" condition on price, so my real disagreement is around what counts as reasonable. Most of these companies would view a 200k salary as unreasonable. I'm not so sure.

Examples abound, but I remember a company talking about how great its salaries were, and one example was a guy with a PhD from University of Texas (Austin) and 5 years work experience. His salary was $125,000. I wouldn't expect it to endear me to many Americans to scoff at $125k a year, but when you think about how long PhD programs are, how high the attrition rates are, how much talent it takes, and the kind of salaries available to people with professional degrees that take a shorter time (with far lower attrition rates)... well, it's pretty clear that $125k actually isn't all that competitive. I'm sure that it would give employers sticker shock, but to get competitive with the other fields attracting the best and brightest, they might well have to go over 200k for someone like this.

If it's not "worth it", then clearly there is no shortage, it would be a suboptimal use of talent.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#358

Post by WimLeers »

freehunter wrote: post #263
stephencanon wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, median compensation for really good doctors is vastly higher than median compensation for really good developers (in the US, anyway).

And really good doctors have really high bills to pay, as well. Not many developers need 8 years of the best schooling (one could make the argument that really good developers don't need any schooling, although it helps). Your point still stands, but student loans from med school are nothing to brush aside.

That's not a universal truth. Studying medicine in Europe is not significantly more expensive than studying history, CS or whatnot.

E.g., in Belgium, any year spent studying at college- or university-level costs €550 (±$720), plus the cost of the books. If your parents earn less than a middle class income, you pay significantly less.

The major difference that does hold true everywhere, is the fact that doctors start earning a salary much later.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#359

Post by mryan »

reinhardt wrote: post #348
mryan wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, the "30% ruling". For those that haven't heard of this wonderful piece of legislation if means you only pay tax on 70% of your salary if you qualify as a knowledge migrant. Yes, you get 30% of your salary tax free. There are also other benefits, e.g. you don't pay income tax on dividends from your home country. It's not just consultancies and OEMs that will help apply for this - I work at a startup and I am class…

Sounds tempting.. is there a hidden jobs link in the site somewhere? ;)

No, but here's one: http://www.fashiolista.com/content/fashiolista-jobs/ :)

You can contact us via that page, or feel free to email me directly (email in profile).

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#360

Post by noonespecial »

malandrew wrote: post #132
mikecaron wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, to command six figures, you've either many years (10+) of experience under your belt, a masters + experience or you're applying in NYC or LA/SF where cost of living is astronomical. In the midwest, you'd be hard pressed to find a starting salary at 6-figures except at the very bottom of that 6-fig range.

You shouldn't get paid based on your cost of living. You should get paid on value added. TBH, I don't see why living in the midwest should drop the salary a company owes you that much. If you are a good developer, you should command a salary comparable to the value you add plus a profit margin for the business. The only two explanations I can see is that, collectively, software engineers in the midwest are simply not…

Employers value proximity. They'll pay extra for it.
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