Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds • Hacker News Board

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#351

Post by shermantanktop » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 3:52 PM UTC

williamcotton wrote: post #205

shermantanktop wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweet is the lore which Nature brings; Our meddling intellect Mis-shapes the beauteous forms of things:— We murder to dissect. Ok, with high school poetry class over…this “scientific management” approach seems to hold a particular appeal to technical types, who also say it could never apply to them. So bravo for volunteering your own working life to the altar of manageable metrics, but for me, I’d rather not.

As margins slim in our industry, which they will, would you rather have management understand the true costs of things or would you rather have over-hiring followed by mass firing? I already fill out hourly timesheets as I work in legal services and we bill clients by the half hour, albeit just for external purposes. This isn’t just Taylorism. I’m also describing Activity-Based Costing, a key component in managerial…

That’s very industry-dependent. I worked in a tech company that acquired a creative production company, and the tech leadership attempted to impose a metrics-based approach to what was a traditional creative process. That process had obvious signs of waste, including a high failure rate, excess travel expenses, etc., when compared to averages.

The result of this approach, centered on metrics, ranking, making lists and using “objective data”? They almost killed the golden goose. The successes dropped off and the averages declined. The tech side finally had to back off, and those people are back to acting like they always did.

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#352

Post by BeetleB » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 3:53 PM UTC

brvsft wrote: post #256

bargle0 wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO, an hour spent commuting is an hour stolen from one’s children.

I am starting to use coworking spaces now because WFH has something of a toll on my family, primarily because kids are loud, and it can be frustrating to work while your loud kid is screaming in the next room without enough of a sound barrier to prevent you from hearing it. I'm not angry at my child, but sometimes I get upset with my wife for not preventing this, or for telling me it's not that loud when it is imposs…

> I know it's a bit of an outlier (SAH mother + WFH father)

Not much of an outlier.

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

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Post by toast0 » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 3:54 PM UTC

bdw5204 wrote: post #281

pigbearpig wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bill might like a long commute as much as Gladys likes to work from home. Hard to call Bill a sucker in that case.

The only reason I can imagine that somebody would genuinely like a long commute would be if they hate their home life and are trying to escape from it. They'd probably be better off just getting a divorce instead.

I had a bike / ferry / bike commute a couple days a week for a while. It was nice to get that exercise in, and I enjoy ferry rides too.

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#354

Post by steveBK123 » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 3:55 PM UTC

intended wrote: post #185

epolanski wrote: post #173

The fundamental issue I see in this debate is a lack of sensibility and nuance in human nature. The whole matter is debated (understandably in a way) on big numbers and averages. I could write a long post but I'll cut it short to this paragraph stating that humans differ. For some commuting is stressful, the offices are noisy and full of distractions and those individuals may thrive in a remote setup. There's people…

I would add one major change that the work from home experiment has achieved - its made the opportunity cost of the work commute clear. This is a time cost paid for by the worker. As you stated, this is variable. If you have a short commute, or you like it, or you get some exercise - office is great. If you hate your commute, if its 3 hours in pollution and traffic - not so much. Earlier the position was that WFH was…

I've generally had a 30-40min commute most of my career, but also generally had a flexible enough start time that exact to the minute arrival at my desk was not performance impacting.

Unfortunately a lot of things conflate over time as you become more senior to generally make your commute worse.

For me - my last 2 roles have earlier required start time, with a hard start (morning meeting / standup / L3 support presence), company office locations got a little further, and trains got a little less reliable.

Fortunately I am remote since COVID, but when I was going in / or have to go in now.. I need to bake in 45-60min depending on how much I'm willing to risk being late that day.

For me I'd rather work 11-12 hours/day at home then go into office for 10 hours & spend 1.5-2 hours on the commute. Company is getting 10-20% more time out of me, and I at least save the money & "commute prep time".

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#355

Post by swozey » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 3:55 PM UTC

e_i_pi_2 wrote: post #258

epolanski wrote: post #173

The fundamental issue I see in this debate is a lack of sensibility and nuance in human nature. The whole matter is debated (understandably in a way) on big numbers and averages. I could write a long post but I'll cut it short to this paragraph stating that humans differ. For some commuting is stressful, the offices are noisy and full of distractions and those individuals may thrive in a remote setup. There's people…

> the decision C-suite have to make when planning projects > in the setup that's decided I'd argue this shouldn't be a top-down decision - you can just let teams and individuals decide what works best for them, then that can be communicated upwards so the company can plan office space/resource allocation

I can't imagine a C-suite determining literally anything about my team beyond allowing it to exist in the budget.

I worked at way too many startups where the CEO was far too involved with day to day minutiae.

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#356

Post by justapassenger » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 3:58 PM UTC

bdw5204 wrote: post #281

pigbearpig wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bill might like a long commute as much as Gladys likes to work from home. Hard to call Bill a sucker in that case.

The only reason I can imagine that somebody would genuinely like a long commute would be if they hate their home life and are trying to escape from it. They'd probably be better off just getting a divorce instead.

[dead]

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#357

Post by FireBeyond » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 3:59 PM UTC

bob88jg wrote: post #220

raxxorraxor wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely let my employer pay for my commute. Indirectly of course, but my income requirements are dependent on how much hours I have to put into work, which includes my overall time investment. Same with all other costs I have because of work. That said, time is important to me and I have a 5min commute, 20min if I walk. For that reason I do prefer the office. Better meals and better coffee and nice colleagues. I…

It's not the financial cost of the time that's important it's the time itself - it's the requirement to completely go against my internal body clock to be at a location by a socially determined starting time - I start working at 10am usually - from home that means I can get up at 8.30 perhaps- to be in an office that means 6.30 am - I don't want to wake up at that time...

Disclaimer: not saying regular exercise isn't important...

There is a meme, or some "motivational" thing that floats around. "Exercise for an hour a day. It's less than 5% of your day - what's your excuse?"

Uhh... because, if I factor in: - 8 hours for sleeping

- 8 hours for working

- 1.5-2 hours for commuting

- 0.5-1 hour to get ready for work

- 1 hour to prepare and eat dinner

All of a sudden we are at 19-20 hours, and it's not less than 5% of my day, it's actually 25% of my day.

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#358

Post by repeekad » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 3:59 PM UTC

steveBK123 wrote: post #344

epolanski wrote: post #173

The fundamental issue I see in this debate is a lack of sensibility and nuance in human nature. The whole matter is debated (understandably in a way) on big numbers and averages. I could write a long post but I'll cut it short to this paragraph stating that humans differ. For some commuting is stressful, the offices are noisy and full of distractions and those individuals may thrive in a remote setup. There's people…

Right, I think the important nuance is that "it depends" and therefore, top-down C-level suite dictates on Remote/Hybrid/In-office requirements are generally more punitive than useful. If your team level management org cannot organically work out the right mix on a team/role basis, then you probably should look at what else they are doing poorly.

I think you’re touching on an important point though, mix of in person and in office is really challenging, because some people see each other all day while others are literally more disconnected. It creates a heterogeneous mix of work relationships, and I’m not so sure that handling mix WFH WFO is purely evident of poor team management, it’s just difficult to have a cohesive team when some are physically there and some arent

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#359

Post by steveBK123 » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 3:59 PM UTC

stronglikedan wrote: post #343

jimt1234 wrote: post #97

How could remote work not be more productive? Most of my friends/colleagues get back at least an hour of their lives each day they don't commute, and they all use the "extra" time to do more work. People wanna work. They just don't wanna sit in traffic, walk through parking lots and ride elevators for an hour every day.

> How could remote work not be more productive? I live 10 minutes from my office, and there are much, much fewer distractions there. Anecdotal of course, but it's one way to answer your question.

To me this is almost like internal vs external locus of control stuff.

I can control my focus at home because I am in full control.

In an open floor plan office environment, I have the added challenge of needing to shield my attention from others. For me the open floorpan office is like trying to do work in the middle of an airport terminal (not the lounge, sorry).

Re: Remote work doesn't seem to affect productivity, Fed study finds

#360

Post by rcbdev » Thu, Jan 18, 2024, 4:00 PM UTC

With the entire commute debate being what it is I will just point out that in Austria there has been somewhat of a solution to this for a long time now - it's called the "Pendlerpauschale" (commuter's flat rate).

If you live far enough away from your employee (20km+) you are entitled to an added monthly bonus to your salary - depending on your estimated commute time.