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Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

nytimes.com

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Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#351

Post by SideQuark »

sinuhe69 wrote: post #127

Seriously, why people in tech are opposed to unions? In Europe, unions and Betriebsrat (works committee) are the norm. Why not in the US?

The US also pays significantly more. Unions change the risk calculation for employers, and the result will be changes in compensation, and often increased costs to consumers.

Also unions in the US have quite often rewarded seniority over skill and effort, making them less attractive to high performers.

Early on in tech I outperformed all those I started with, and was able to make significantly more as a result. My friends in union jobs (electrician, auto plant workers, ..) did not get any such opportunity to shine, and they even had to strike (i.e., no pay) when the local shops decided they should. They're not allowed to work outside jobs, they have a terrible time starting new shops, since the existing union power brokers like the control over their employment.

I looked into moving to the UK, and saw how few startups in the EU become big, how hard it is in most countries there to make new businesses compared to the US, and decided against it. The EU is ~450M people, the US is ~330M. Now look at how few companies in the EU become worth 1B compared to the US. That low ratio also applies to smaller (and larger) companies.

Increased benefits to workers for one facet of employment is not free. Laws adding costs per employee to an employer are not simply paid out of magic money.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#352

Post by SideQuark »

madeofpalk wrote: post #174
trashtester wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One reason is that in times of high growth, unions tend to be a limiting factor to innovation, growth and worker compensation, especially for top performers. Another is that during layoffs, unions may force the company to lay off people based on seniority instead of competency. If you compare salaries for developers between Germany and the US, I think this point becomes blatantly clear.

It's not blatantly clear that US's salaries are due to lack of developer unions.

On the other hand, the highest paying professions don't have unions, even outside tech.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#353

Post by dukeyukey »

madeofpalk wrote: post #169
DrBazza wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are often non-compete clauses in employment contracts. Depending on the country, they're not worth the paper they're written on sometimes. In others, legally binding.

Illegal in California.

Most people don't live in California.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#354

Post by ChatGTP »

dukeyukey wrote: post #348
teitoklien wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You add unions in tech, and then wonder why dev salaries in EU and the UK are so abysmally low.

> why dev salaries in EU and the UK are so abysmally low American dev salaries are the exception. It's the rest of the world where they're not outstanding.

I think they were the exception, the lay offs are likely execs realizing they can get the same or better by hiring someone remotely in a developing country to do the work.

Not saying this is a better outcome for anyone specifically, but surely it's compelling?

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#355

Post by lazyasciiart »

killerstorm wrote: post #344
offices wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When a company has embedded itself so deeply in public life - globally - it's reasonable to have strong feelings about its actions. When we say layoffs work, are we considering the way the same companies overhired just a few years ago, harming the rest of the employment market? Do we remember this in later discussions when we treat these companies as prescient hiveminds, in spite of them using overtuned bang-bang con…

I find it a bit hilarious that programmers feel entitled being employed for life in one company. Did you ever consider finishing the project? Getting it done and delivered? My first paid job as a programmer was like that. We made an exam software for university, a complete package covering the process from authoring test questions to making reports. We made it in 6 months and it was done. Finished. Working. There was…

You’re suggesting that Microsoft should be done with Windows by now, are you?

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#356

Post by bootsmann »

wil421 wrote: post #341
typedef_struct wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I usually think actors, writers, athletes, doctors, lawyers.

What unions do doctors and lawyers belong to? Never hear of unions for these professions in the US.

AMA is the union for doctors

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#357

Post by dukeyukey »

kypro wrote: post #136
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IT salaries are high mostly because the people who can do the job well can also do other jobs well, so if salaries go down then people change careers. For example, most people who can do IT could also become an electrician, for which the demand is currently high. > Also ChatGPT and other AIs increasing developers, artists, etc. productivity - so fewer people can do as much work. This is the sort of thing that increas…

> IT salaries are high mostly because the people who can do the job well can also do other jobs well True to some extent, but IT salaries are high in my opinion because until recently there was a very limited tech talent pool but huge demand for IT talent. I mean IT was only really seen as a good career around 15-20 years ago. We just got lucky. We had the right skills at the right time. We rode the wave of big tech…

Compilers did the same thing. But over time, as more ways to apply code and software got found, demand massively increased beyond what it was previously. This will probably be the same, at least if AI doesn't completely upend every single knowledge job there is.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#360

Post by pyrale »

whiplash451 wrote: post #165
nly wrote: post #35

My firm made billions last year too and just laid off hundreds of engineers (a decent %) Some of the best engineers, those that I respected the most, went. People who make no sense. After last year's layoffs they told us they were "done" and it was "all behind us". Last year then turned out to a better year financially than 2022 (we have access to the top line numbers) You can't trust anything anyone above you in the…

> Take their fucking money, build a big emergency fund, save, invest. Very sane advice, but unfortunately not always an option. The likelihood of making real (not paper) life-changing money in a few years has considerably decreased in 5-10 years. It will only come back with a good pace of IPOs and investor-positive acquisitions.

> The likelihood of making real (not paper) life-changing money

There is a difference between "save, build an emergency fund" and "get into some get-rich-quick scheme".

The goal of emergency funds and saving, for most people, is to prevent life-changing events, not create them. You don't need a ludicrous paycheck to have a rainy days fund, and to put money aside, and you shouldn't count on IPOs and acquisitions to build it.

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