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The Techno-Optimist Manifesto

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Re: The Techno-Optimist Manifesto

#351

Post by Karrot_Kream »

helboi4 wrote: post #337
KaiserPro wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> dismantled the subcontinent's dominant position in the market That doesn't happen until after the luddite's first appearance in ~1816 [1] > This created the skilled textile jobs that were eventually mechanized and displaced. No, The displacement is what the Luddites were railing against. Weavers had been highly paid, profitable and skilled occupation from the "dark ages" onwards. Technological advances meant that t…

Thank you for debunking this. Even with my basic knowledge of history I was pretty sure this guy was far off mark.

You're being juvenile. If you're going to cheer for a historical faction that you feel reflects your values and jeer their opponents, it's probably best to not have a "basic knowledge of history". Historical groups aren't sports teams.

Re: The Techno-Optimist Manifesto

#352

Post by gojomo »

ethanbond wrote: post #313
gojomo wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Academic credentials in the US, especially at the 'prestige' institutions, have been hollowed out quite a lot by politics, groupthink, & logrolling. Large government subsidies, & a self-replicating nearly-hereditary elite, have insulated much of their output from accountability to the broader society, and even from accountability to the truth. Even an "uber-wealthy capital allocator" with a big personal-wealth buffer…

Ah, I see. We’re supposed to engage these ideas in the “reality” in which interlocutors don’t have motivations, incentives, perspectives, personal histories, or attitudes toward topics that are revealed in their tone. Which reality is that again? In that reality, does this writing warrant more attention, or less? Presumably we’re reading this to understand what Marc thinks, and to isolate the stated words from their…

> Ah, I see. We’re supposed to engage these ideas in the “reality” in which interlocutors don’t have motivations, incentives, perspectives, personal histories, or attitudes toward topics that are revealed in their tone.

No, but if that's the 1st subtext into which you rush, rather than all the other ideas on offer here, much broader than any of Mr. Andreesen's life particulars, then you've chosen to play a pettier game. It's a free country.

> There are several “techno-optimist” (and adjacent) horses one can hitch their wagon to.

Ok, then. Who are your favorites, and in which ideas/dimensions are they offering something with better insight/appeal/non-'askew'ness than Andreesen?

Or do you only nitpick?

Re: The Techno-Optimist Manifesto

#353

Post by cityliving »

elihu wrote: post #154

> We believe energy should be in an upward spiral. Energy is the foundational engine of our civilization. The more energy we have, the more people we can have, and the better everyone’s lives can be. We should raise everyone to the energy consumption level we have, then increase our energy 1,000x, then raise everyone else’s energy 1,000x as well. Let's not do that on Earth please. If you want to build a planet-sized…

It is a bit of a strange part of the manifesto. Surely increasing energy efficiency is a better way to the same endpoint of abundance that Marc champions. After all, if we make everything 1,000x energy efficient (to use his example) we get to the same endpoint.

Re: The Techno-Optimist Manifesto

#354

Post by simonebrunozzi »

What worries me most is that this guy is supposed to be the inspirational leader of many startup founders and technologists, in Silicon Valley and elsewhere.

Reading this made me really sad.

It's actually hard for me to conjure the strength to write and share an appropriate response, and explain why.

Let me just mention one of many thoughts. Mark Andreessen cites a number of Patron Saints of Techno-Optimism, "In lieu of detailed endnotes and citations, read the work of these people, and you too will become a Techno-Optimist."

One of them is Filippo Tommaso Marinetti.

This is what FTM writes in his Manifesto of Futurism [0]. (original Italian first, then English translation).

""Noi vogliamo glorificare la guerra - sola igiene del mondo - il militarismo, il patriottismo, il gesto distruttore dei liberatori, le belle idee per cui si muore e il disprezzo della donna."

"We will glorify war - the only true hygiene of the world - militarism, patriotism, the destructive gesture of anarchist, the beautiful ideas which kill, and the scorn of woman"

In 2023, reading about the "glory of war", and the "scorn of woman", should be enough to know what's needed to judge this guy.

Mark, you are really smart and successful and most people would envy your fame and wealth and intelligence, but you need to grow up for once and realize how sick some of your ideas are.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifesto_of_Futurism

Re: The Techno-Optimist Manifesto

#355

Post by intended »

pixelmonkey wrote: post #265
lazzlazzlazz wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read the other comments in this thread: HN, like much of west coast tech, has started to fracture along political lines. When I first joined HN many years ago, it was a haven for techno-optimism (not unlike this essay), but has fallen back into being reactive, resistant, cynical, and sanctimonious. I guess that's what happens after too many years of b2b saas paychecks.

I don't think there is anything wrong with B2B SaaS. I think that's a red herring. From my experience, the conformist attitude we see on display these days comes from FANG salarymen ("salarypeople", the reference to the Japanese cultural concept of "salarymen" is instructive). They have treated tech as nothing more than a fancy bourgeois "career path" -- like high finance in the 80s or big law in the 90s. An inoffens…

I’ll add that this kind of techno optimism isnt even the kind of person who builds a company. It’s the kind of person who has gotten too far from the beating pulse of tech.

Tech won - and thats created new problems. You dont fix that by burying your head in the past.

Re: The Techno-Optimist Manifesto

#356

Post by cityliving »

There's a fair bit to like about this, and it's roughly aligned with my worldview: that, on balance, technology and market forces are a force for good; and that there is a little bit too much techno-pessimism abound that has led to bad outcomes (such as the relative lack of nuclear power). I think it's generally under appreciated just how good things are. The world, overall, is getting continuously better (Factfulness by Hans Rosling demonstrates this better than any other source I've come across).

Then again, there are bits of it which are a little bit strange - the enemies section, for example. SV could "move fast and break things" previously, but with its size, power and influence, it probably needs to take a slightly more "win friends and influence people" approach.

But most of all, it is a little bit contrary to some of a16z most high profile recent investments: Clubhouse, NFTs, web3. It's hard to see how these investments and products align with building towards abundance. I wonder if he's spent a little too much time away from the hands-on detail, where the next tech innovation will probably happen.

Re: The Techno-Optimist Manifesto

#357

Post by gen220 »

jeffreyrogers wrote: post #75
Balladeer wrote: post #19

> Markets prevent monopolies and cartels. A lot of the optimism seems to rely on this statement and...I'm not convinced? But I also admit I'm not well informed on the topic. Does anyone have suggested reading on 'market discipline', as they're calling it? I mean, the first person on their "Patron Saints of Techno-Optimism" is Jeff Bezos, who is actively dealing with an antitrust lawsuit from the FTC regarding Amazon'…

> I mean, the first person on their "Patron Saints of Techno-Optimism" is Jeff Bezos No, it's an anonymous Twitter account, you read the name wrong, "Beff Jezos" (sic), not "Jeff Bezos". Also if you look at the purest form of markets, which is probably high frequency trading, there are no monopolies and no cartels. It's an intensely competitive industry with relatively small profits given their transaction volume.

HFT is a dance in the shadows of the most highly-regulated practices in history (securities exchanges), I don't think it's a good example of "pure" markets being immune to monopolies.

Each of those regulations is a tombstone for the monopolies and cartels that came before, and there will absolutely be more tombstones to come. The history of the stock market is rife with corruption, stock manipulation, and short-thrifting the general public. The great fortunes of the 20th century were made on the backs of practices that are all kinds of illegal today, and with good reason.

Re: The Techno-Optimist Manifesto

#358

Post by gen220 »

Quoting Charlie Munger:

> Show me the incentive and I will show you the outcome.

Unfortunately for the original spirit of the internet that they've cashed in on over and over in the previous 25 years, I can't imagine a more Marc Andreessen/Andreessen Horowitz post, today, than this one here.

Re: The Techno-Optimist Manifesto

#359

Post by Uehreka »

simonebrunozzi wrote: post #354

What worries me most is that this guy is supposed to be the inspirational leader of many startup founders and technologists, in Silicon Valley and elsewhere. Reading this made me really sad. It's actually hard for me to conjure the strength to write and share an appropriate response, and explain why. Let me just mention one of many thoughts. Mark Andreessen cites a number of Patron Saints of Techno-Optimism, "In lieu…

The idea of someone unironicly promoting Marinetti (a co-author of the Fascist Manifesto) in 2023 is mind-blowing. I get the idea of wanting to be optimistic about technology, but Marinetti is a cautionary tale of how optimism about technology can morph into disdain for humanity. He’s an anti-role model, the thing we need to be careful not to become.

Re: The Techno-Optimist Manifesto

#360

Post by noneeeed »

maccaw wrote: post #199
noneeeed wrote: post #97

This isn't a techno-optimist manifesto. This is a libertarian, anarcho-capitalist manifesto with a sprinkling of 1960 tech boosterism so that they can point at people who disagree and call them luddites. I'm a massive techno-optimist. I think science and technology has self-evidently bought vast improvements to the human experience. I think it's an absolutely essential part of solving many of the problems that plague…

Which parts do you reject?

Well, essentially the libertarian anarcho-capitalist bits.

TBH, I can can just strongly disagree with people like that, but what got me worked up about this pile of high-school grade political science was the way it conflated all that libertarian anarcho-capitalism with being pro-tech, and implying that any concern for the negative effects of developement (or of the economic system) therefore automatically puts you on the "enemies" side of things.

It's a frantastically offensive false catagorisation that I strongly reject.

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