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Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

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Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#351
post #17
post #8

They've been doing it for twenty years, hydrogen allows maintaining a distribution network and *most of all* to keep using fossil fuels to generate it

Much longer than 20 years. But the reason it hasn't taken off is that both the economics and the physics don't work very well for consumer vehicles.

Because gasoline was more convenient. Now with clean emission mandates gasoline can’t be used anymore. But that doesn’t mean EVs suddenly got more efficient.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#352
post #114

The argumentation is flawed. 1. Just imagine the required charging infrastructure if all vehicles were suddenly battery powered. Charging electric vehicles requires quite some power. Can the power grid installations sustain that (power lines, Transformer stations...) ? What resources (financial and physical (e.g. Cooper)) are required in order to adapt the infrastructure ? Just an example: A supercharger station whic…

You forgot that the power station is a centralized point of failure, where as the fuel distribution network is not. This make the power stations a much more valuable target as you can easily disable a country’s transportation infrastructure.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#353
post #114

The argumentation is flawed. 1. Just imagine the required charging infrastructure if all vehicles were suddenly battery powered. Charging electric vehicles requires quite some power. Can the power grid installations sustain that (power lines, Transformer stations...) ? What resources (financial and physical (e.g. Cooper)) are required in order to adapt the infrastructure ? Just an example: A supercharger station whic…

Re 1: The US built 1,000,000 new homes last year without anyone saying "how we the country cope with this increase in need for wood/etc". Most new homes will have multiple 50A circuits to power an electric range and/or HVAC system. Most level 2 electric car chargers max at 50-75A, and can be configured to only charge during times of low grid power demand. Every electric car in existence won't be DC fast charging all…

We have plenty of wood, go outside and see for yourself. We currently have very visible issues with the power grid, and as you’ve pointed out you’ve doubled every houses power demand.

Let’s look at what happened in TX, when the grid shut down. How will people charge their cars to leave the area? Maybe people used the gasoline engine in their car to provide heat.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#354
post #114

The argumentation is flawed. 1. Just imagine the required charging infrastructure if all vehicles were suddenly battery powered. Charging electric vehicles requires quite some power. Can the power grid installations sustain that (power lines, Transformer stations...) ? What resources (financial and physical (e.g. Cooper)) are required in order to adapt the infrastructure ? Just an example: A supercharger station whic…

https://advocacy.consumerreports.org/research/blog-can-the-g... ("A question that frequently comes up when discussing electric vehicles (EVs) is: “Can the grid handle it?” The short answer is “yes.”") [Blog post demonstrates the math showing the grid can handle 100% EVs] Superchargers are primarily for road trips and people who need to fast charge because they don’t have home charging (for now; infra is rolling out v…

> Most will charge at home, work, or other locations that perhaps have a level 2 charger

with the push for cheaper, multi tenant housing where you have many households sharing the same parking lot, how does charging at home work? How do you bill the person charging? What if every spot has its own charger?

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#355
post #132
post #114

The argumentation is flawed. 1. Just imagine the required charging infrastructure if all vehicles were suddenly battery powered. Charging electric vehicles requires quite some power. Can the power grid installations sustain that (power lines, Transformer stations...) ? What resources (financial and physical (e.g. Cooper)) are required in order to adapt the infrastructure ? Just an example: A supercharger station whic…

Source for either of these claims other than "just imagine?" Of course infrastructure is a concern but I haven't seen any sources that claim we are unprepared to sustain significant EV deployment - and of course it will not ever happen overnight, so that's a strawman.

have you not paid attention to the rolling blackouts in CA? or what happened in TX recently?

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "BEV's aren't as ideally suited to the country's economy and resources." BEVs are better suited to Japan's economy and resources than any other fuel, the vast majority of which is imported (including natural gas). It's just that it's taken Japan's government a long time to realise this. But it seems like they're finally coming around!

BEV is hit and miss for Japan. For vehicle usage, it's great that we don't need to import oil from mideast (that is a big reason for trade deficit) and of course it's great for commute and non-long commercial usage. But it's not suitable for a big personal car use case. Japanese family can't take holidays as what they want, so they tend to do long trip in the same specific long holidays (new year, Golden week, Obon,…

The "holiday weekend" phenomena is not unique to Japan. It's a challenge already for many countries with growing EV share, where you often see big queues at charging stations along highways at peak holiday times.

It's not insurmountable, though. For one thing, big industries tend to shut down on holiday weekends, so there is lots of spare generation & transmission capacity on the grid. Here in the UK it's not unusual for wholesale electricity prices to go negative on windy holiday weekends - there's so much surplus energy available that the grid struggles to deal with it all! That makes holidays very profitable for charging operators and gives a strong incentive to deploy as much fast charging as possible.

Dynamic pricing can also help here. You raise prices at the most congested charging locations and busiest times, and lower them at under-utilised locations and off-peak times. Tesla already do this with their superchargers. Navigation software that is aware of how busy the chargers are can also route traffic onto less congested routes where there is unlikely to be queues.

Also remember that there is plenty of time to build out all the needed charging infrastructure. Even if all car sales switched to EV tomorrow, we've still got 10-20 years before we approach 100% of journeys being made by EV, depending on how fast the vehicle fleet gets turned over in your country.

> "For vehicle manufacturing, there's very less advantage to make BEVs in Japan, meanwhile China is too strong. Car manufacturing is a big industry so shrinking it causes Japan economy to be dead. "

Japan must make BEVs in Japan in order to secure the future of the Japanese car industry. If they don't keep up with the times, there won't be a Japanese car industry in the long term - at least not for exports. Japan putting their heads in the sand will not make the global EV transition disappear!

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#357
post #5

Anyone who has followed hydrogen as a fuel for a while sees pretty easily that its a solution in search of a problem. It really doesn't make sense to use renewables to make hydrogen fuel to then burn: batteries are better for storage of energy in most cases (I will grant that there are edge cases where a liquid/gas fuel is a better technical solution than batteries, but I think that options like ethanol are probably…

"From 2020 through March 31, 2023, Toyota sold a total of 23,123 fuel cell vehicles."

This is less than the number of EVs Tesla builds every single week.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most Japanese houses do not have parking garages or private parking spaces, so the ability to charge from home is irrelevant. But in any case, single phase is fine for home charging and it's the default in many parts of the world. Three phase charging is a nice luxury, but far from a necessity.

In many Japanese cities you won't get a permit to buy a car unless you can prove you have a place to park it. Curbside parking isn't a thing. So in those cases it really is irrelevant whether you can charge or not =)

Indeed. And it's not so difficult to make a rule that wherever car parks and parking spaces are built, chargers must also be provided.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They will definitely care collectively as the roads deteriorate faster and they have to pay more in tax dollars and wasted time spent in construction to repair them, but that will end up being a tragedy of the commons The difference in wear between a 3600 pound RAV4 and a 4400 pound Model Y is so minor that it'll disappear in the noise. Nobody will notice. The only time it'll even come close to mattering is on resi…

I mean, if we’re picking models to support our points, I’d counter with the Hummer EV which is 9,630 lbs. Road wear goes up with the 4th power of weight, so doubling the weight increases road wear 16x… it’s not something we should just ignore.

> if we’re picking models to support our points, I’d counter with the Hummer EV

I picked the Model Y, which has outsold every other non-pickup vehicle except the RAV4, and it's really close to the RAV4 numbers. It's a good comparison.

How many Hummers has GM sold this year? Couple hundred? That's three orders of magnitude fewer than the Model Y, the Hummer is irrelevant.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That car cannot be legally driven in Europe on a B license due to its weight. Phew.

If only we had that kind of sanity in the US… the electric hummer is an absolute monstrosity and should never have been made IMO. I am a supporter of EV’s but, I am increasingly skeptical that legacy US automakers will ever “get it” when it comes to efficiency, and it’s not surprising at all to end up with monster vehicles like the EV hummer. But I do admit the American consumer shares as much of the blame by demandi…

The Hummer is a toy. It sells in toy numbers, and has toy impact on society. It's a distraction. The most popular EVs are just like the most popular ICEVs -- crossovers.
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