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Why I Left Rust
351–360 of 880 posts
Re: Why I Left Rust
#352All of this drama / culture war or whatever you want to call it is a big part of what turned me off to Rust in the first place.
I come from .NET background and am open to the idea of a realistic C/C++ replacement. My experience with .NET and its "community" has left me with a really comfortable feeling with regard to my ability to do business, just "get shit done", etc. To be clear, there isn't really a community. I think that's why you don't hear a whole lot of drama come out of it. It's more of a LARP where we pretend we have some kind of say and sometimes Microsoft's leadership agrees and it looks like we participated openly. Most on HN hate this, but when you are trying to build a stable B2B product and signing 5+ year contracts, it's a goddamn paradise to not have concerns about what angry corners of social media might be up in arms about today.
Re: Why I Left Rust
#353I haven't seen anyone bring this up, so I will. I read through the original blog post from JeanHeyd[1] and in no way do they mention anything related to being a person of color, why then does JT associate it with that? I have no idea about the inner workings of the rust leadership team and who they are even, but from the timeline described and from the original post, there's nothing the could be related to that. Jean…
It was a small part of the post and I think it was explained fairly. It's part of the context, and they don't think it should be ignored. JeanHeyd doesn't have to have mentioned it (or even thought about it) for it to be considered relevant by someone else.
The behaviour is disrespectful regardless of colour, yes. But someone's skin colour does influence other people's behaviour.
Re: Why I Left Rust
#354I've been to plenty of conferences over the years, and I never really knew who was a "keynote speaker" or "only" a "speaker". Does anyone pay attention to this? You give a talk. People show up. They clap at the end. Does it really matter what some title on some conference website is? The communication was perhaps a bit more confusing and hectic than it should have been, but does that really matter? Is that really a b…
It's funny, I have this same "who cares?" prior about it being a keynote, but draw the opposite conclusion. A simple disclaimer that the idea's appearance in a keynote doesn't imply that it will land in the language would have sufficed. It's just a talk, it's fine.
Re: Why I Left Rust
#355Earlier quoted context omitted.
That’s a lot of words you just put in my mouth. I’m not going to bother responding to every point you just hallucinated, but I do want to point out that I don’t think a crime has been committed.
You very literally accused someone of 'covering something bad up' because of a random post.
Not at all what they said.
Re: Why I Left Rust
#356I'll obviously not stop using Rust over this -- and I think 99.99% of the people using Rust for work will not stop using it either -- but this looks like a case where the underlying true issue (sidestepping a democratic process) was very quickly forgotten and people started arguing over the expressions of the problem using dramatic and exaggerated language, which just makes things worse because it makes other people…
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I will not accept being stereotyped and you implying I am wrong without you giving a single argument to defend your stance. Your nebulous claims might as well be summarized as "I dislike you for reasons I won't ever explain".
If you want to discuss, let's go. If you are only gonna use thinly veiled insults then you got no leg to stand on.
(If I understood you correctly, you seem to think something as small as the Rust foundation should fight racism on a world scale?)
Re: Why I Left Rust
#357Earlier quoted context omitted.
rust needs it's empaths, too. if we can all figure out how to adult, be decent, work together, and understand the strengths/weaknesses of our very different personalities and skills, hopefully we can all continue building cool stuff together without alienating important voices.
> if we can all figure out how to adult Part of adulting is responding proportionally to childish behavior in others. Events like this feel like my toddlers fighting—he takes her pencil so she tears his paper so he hits her so she comes crying to mommy. The adult in the room deescalates, they don't write an emotional blog about how betrayed they feel on behalf of someone else.
That depends on the power balance. Adults have power over children. The author does not have power over the people involved. Deescalating when you lack power is often little different from not saying anything at all. This is why most non-generational change to existing power structures involves large groups of very angry people. Same reason complaining about your Google Account getting locked on social media is more effective than spending the rest of your life going through their process.
The real question is if the Rust project has an equitable governance structure that minimizes imbalances of power or if it doesn't. If it does then the author should follow that instead of a large angry blog post. If it doesn't then he may as well go with the large angry blog post.
Re: Why I Left Rust
#358As a non-american I must say I don't understand where the latter half of the article comes from. Why care about race? Why must a racist reason be sought behind everything?
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Saying someone is black or someone identifying as black is not the same as the n-word, this is hilariously out of touch
Re: Why I Left Rust
#359Earlier quoted context omitted.
The people who don't think this is a big deal are either lacking some empathy or don't understand how conferences work. The equivalent situation is something like being warmly invited to a wedding, which you accept. The bride and groom then spend time gushing over how great it is that you'll be there, telling everyone they know, insisting that you book tickets right away. Later, you're told you can only come to the c…
It's up to you how you deal with stuff like this: you either turn everything in to a big drama or you just accept that these things are a part of life and can happen because the universe is a chaotic place. It's not like they lost their job or something; it's just a 2-day event. If adding some perspective makes me "lacking empathy" then so be it, but I resent the accusation. We can also turn that around: the organise…
This goes both ways though? The organizers also turned this into a big drama and could have instead chosen to just chill and accept there was going to be a keynote some of them didn't love.
Re: Why I Left Rust
#360I'll obviously not stop using Rust over this -- and I think 99.99% of the people using Rust for work will not stop using it either -- but this looks like a case where the underlying true issue (sidestepping a democratic process) was very quickly forgotten and people started arguing over the expressions of the problem using dramatic and exaggerated language, which just makes things worse because it makes other people…
It's unlikely there is anyone in a position of authority in Rust consciously and nefariously excluding black folks and other people of color, but there doesn't need to be. It's a self-reinforcing problem that requires conscious effort to address. I'm a (nonblack) minority, and I tend to actively avoid participation in groups where I know I'm not likely to be understood in important ways. It can be pretty fucking exha…
Fair, but let's recognize the fact that nobody has stopped you at the door.
And I am not sure what does the Rust Foundation has to do with self-reinforcing problems stemming from racism.
Moving the goalposts all the way to the skies is why we can't have productive discussions in many venues of life, sadly.