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Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

jonathanhaidt.substack.com

351–360 of 420 posts

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#351
post #45

There is so much instant dismissal of this entire idea that smartphones are harmful in this thread, most of which is just "correlation is not causation". Yes, correlation does not equal causation. But when it makes logical sense why there would be correlation, there is no way to actually measure causation (we can't exactly give kids placebo phones), we keep seeing the same correlation over and over again, why is it b…

I know this is just anecdotal info but I know of a couple of families with boy and daughter around the same age. One family lets the kids use smartphones and iPads and the other only iPads and only for school.

The former family's kids are constantly in a negative and neurotic mode. Always comparing themselves to other students and complaining about what they don't have.

The latter family's kids are waaaay more properly adjusted and it's not even close. They don't spend a lot of time comparing themselves to other people nor on coveting for stuff they saw on YouTube.

There's just no way that all that external stimuli cannot have a negative effect on one's child.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do understand the difference between these mobile touchscreen devices and their apps and the UX/UI of NES/SNES, right?

Serious?

I would guess that they are. One one hand, I agree with your point that putting one's kid in front of a TV connected to an NES console playing Metroid is the same sort of passive "caring" that is putting one's kid in front of a TV that's connected to a Chromecast playing Netflix or Youtube. On the other, I can also see (I believe per their point) that an NES doesn't have constant content updates or any sort of "feed" which instills a desire to constantly check for updates.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Smartphones give children the ability to bully eachother at a scale unlike any other. No, social media does. I think it's important to be specific about that because a smartphone is just a tool, same as a laptop or a desktop computer is (when I was a kid there was plenty of bullying that went on via AIM!) Having access to e.g. Wikipedia is of enormous benefit to young people. Having the means to easily call your pa…

Having a teenager, I've seen the bullying and caustic behavior without social media. One classic example is for a group of friends to be on a iMessage thread together, and suddenly nobody posts to it anymore because they've created another thread and left you off.

I can totally see this happening, and have wondered whether it would make sense to get my kid a cellular enabled Apple Watch instead of smartphone or dumbphone. She could use it in emergencies, and she'd avoid the green-bubble stigma that dumphone/android users endure (at least in my geo area, where most of my peers have iDevices).

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anything parents are as bad or worse than the kids now. I'm about 40 and am constantly having to remind my own parents to put the phone away and be more present with their grandkids when they come to visit.

Went to a high school graduation this weekend. Because we were running behind, we were in the top of the seats, right in the middle. It was nice because we could see absolutely everything, and I did notice a trend - In the crowd, the 50+ year olds were the ones getting their phones out to dick around during the ceremony. Youth would get the phone out to take pictures, post quickly on socials, then put the phone away.…

I've always found most peoples' fascination with their screens a bit uncanny, but I have to say that I do understand anything that could pass the time at a graduation ceremony. I skipped my own college ceremony, and my only regret to this day is that I didn't apply for tickets because people were re-selling them for decent money.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#356
post #318
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, dude. Conclusions cannot be made based on feelings. Where exactly is that step in the scientific method? It certainly doesn't sound like the rigorous skepticism that should be applied to what is observed. I am appalled at the willingness to make huge logical leaps on the basis of emotions or morality in this thread.

We're talking reasonably informed caution here. Science doesn't come into it, at all. Science is trying to make sense of the world, this is about preventing harm. And, as I wrote elsewhere, the social sciences have almost nothing to offer in terms of policy and decision making. They're too unreliable. We can however easily imagine what's happening in this particular case, and the data support it. The damages are enor…

> We can however easily imagine what's happening in this particular case, and the data support it.

I have yet to see credible data regarding causation and I prefer that large societal decisions not be made based upon imagination. Comic books, pinball, rock n roll, violent video games at some point were all claimed to be destroying our youth and there was "data" presented to back it up.

Teen drug, alcohol, nicotine and sexual activity are significantly down since 2009. Maybe social media is causing that too and on the whole is a benefit. Or maybe teens are more depressed because they aren't getting high, drinking, smoking or screwing enough.

> Like climate change

Climate change has actual quality data and science behind it, so it is nothing alike.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#357
post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s a reflex because we care about this sort of devices. In the same way as gun enthusiasts are overall again any kind of gun control even in dangerous cases. “It cannot be dangerous because I like it”. We need some kind of cultural shift so that people who give their kids a smartphone are shunned like people who give their kids cigarettes or beers.

But to that I ask - don't we all feel these same types of effects ourselves? Does anyone here feel happy about how much they look at their smartphone? And we're adults with fully developed brains - I cannot fathom the havoc it's wreaking on the adolescent (and younger) mind.

This is my explanation as well. I look around and I see lots of addicted adults. Everyone I've asked says they want to use their phone less but they don't. They can't. It's a bad habit. What chance do children have?

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#358
post #45

There is so much instant dismissal of this entire idea that smartphones are harmful in this thread, most of which is just "correlation is not causation". Yes, correlation does not equal causation. But when it makes logical sense why there would be correlation, there is no way to actually measure causation (we can't exactly give kids placebo phones), we keep seeing the same correlation over and over again, why is it b…

It's way worse still. Even if none of the problems you describe materialize for a young individual, still smartphones are bad for development.

They directly come at the expense of socialization, physical activity, discovery and experimentation, group play, facing (manageable) dangers and setbacks, making your own mistakes and learning from them, etc.

To have actual experiences. Good and bad ones. What an absolute dead-end culture it must be to have no experiences.

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#359
post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

("identically possible" as: as legitimately grounded. But of course, if you are convinced that people who are not convinced by your argument can only be dishonest, of course, for you, they are not identically possible) > because we don't see those declines until after the smartphone is introduced, regardless of age. Again, there are a lot of identically possible explanation: the whole society has changed and became g…

> Again, there are a lot of identically possible explanation: the whole society has changed and became globally more anxiogenic It's not one society, it's every society in which smartphones and social media are available. It's simply implausible to suggest that every society on Earth nearly simultaneously became more anxiogenic for no common reason. The common reason very clearly seems to be social media. > the measu…

> It's not one society, it's every society in which smartphones and social media are available. It's simply implausible to suggest that every society on Earth nearly simultaneously became more anxiogenic for no common reason. The common reason very clearly seems to be social media.

It does not make sense: social media, and even more smartphones, can be used in a lot of different ways, and is strongly linked to social behavior of the community you live in. If you are arguing that different societies will not become more anxiogenic at the same time, you cannot also argue that usage of the smartphone, due to a magical reason, turn out to be toxic exactly the same way at the same time for different societies.

What you are saying is both that it is very improbable that every society reacts in the same way when it comes to reaction to globalisation (which, by definition, is affecting the majority of society), but that it is very probable that every society reacts exactly in the same way when it comes to use social media AND ALSO happen to react exactly the same way when adopting smartphones.

I would argue that the first one is way more plausible: globalisation has a stronger chance to affect societies in a similar way than just smartphones, because for globalisation there is an explanation of why they react the same way (a stressful situation is a stressful situation, it does not matter if you are Chinese or Argentinian), while there are no explanation of why all over the world, people started to use the smartphone in a toxic way at the same time, especially if you are pretending that these societies are separated.

> but he's focusing specifically on the Anglosphere in this article. He literally links to all of the prior work discussing the trends and possible explanations,

But that's my point: he is switching to what is more convenient for his conclusion. The elements found in the "focus specifically on the Anglosphere" are NOT the same scale and the same details as in the other society. He just cherry-picks: "this aspect is different, which prove I'm right because US is different than other society, but this aspect is the same, which prove I'm right because these other societies also have smartphones".

> so like I said, I suggest reading them before claiming the situation is murky.

It's interesting that you are saying I haven't read them.

> And he's reviewed those as well: https://jonathanhaidt.substack.com/p/why-some-researchers-th...

Yes, I know this article, and it is very disappointing, a lot of his counter-argument either don't understand the initial criticism, or use arguments that apply to his own work (for example, the whole "in social science, we cannot prove causation, so if I say A -> B it's ok, but if you, you say B -> A, then magically it's not ok")

> he jury is not as far out as you think, only a few jurors are holding out but the direction of the verdict is quite clear now.

Are you sure you are not seeing just the Haidt bubble? I may myself see the situation through a bubble, but what I see is people who are working in Haidt's field and are saying that his theses are not taken that seriously inside this field. How do you know the "verdict is quite clear"? What does it mean for the long list of experts disagreeing (list long enough that Haidt needed to address them, something that would not happen if "the verdict is quite clear"), do you accuse them of being dishonest or biased? Why is it fine when you are accusing these experts of such dishonesty and not when others suspect that Haidt was honest but not careful enough?

Re: Kids who get smartphones earlier become adults with worse mental health

#360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Smartphones and social media are tools. Drugs are tools. Both can be used or abused.

Who are the trained professionals prescribing and dosing out smartphones and social media? Like, I get your analogy, but they are so dissimilar in practice that it just ends up reading naive.

Some people seek out their own drugs to harmlessly fill a void of boredom, or to be a social tool, or for entertainment after a hard days work. Some of those people who innocently tried to use a tool to alter their brain chemistry for the better eventually abused drugs to their detriment.

Some people seek out their social media experiances to harmlessly fill a void of boredom, or to be a social tool, or for entertainment after a hard days work. Some of those people who innocently tried to use a tool to alter their brain chemistry for the better eventually abused social media to their detriment.

But you can also go to the Apple Store and a trained professional will sell you an iPhone if you want to get on TikTok to make new friends because you are lonely.

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