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HP disables customers’ printers if they use ink cartridges from cheaper rivals

telegraph.co.uk

351–360 of 461 posts

Re: HP disables customers’ printers if they use ink cartridges from cheaper rivals

#351
I really do think there needs to be stricter regulations about how products like these can be advertised. Do you really "own" the printer if the manufacturer can decide what ink you're allowed to put in it after you've already paid for it? It really seems disingenuous to market these prints as "purchases" or something that you "buy" like you would a loaf of bread.

It's not quite "renting", but it's not really "owning" either because when you "buy" it, it's not just yours, but you actually share some degree of ownership of it with the manufacturer.

Re: HP disables customers’ printers if they use ink cartridges from cheaper rivals

#352
> the company also blocks the use of rival cartridges in order to “maintain the integrity of our printing systems, and protect our intellectual property”.

One might have thought that the basic IP on ink expired somewhen in the 12th century.

Re: HP disables customers’ printers if they use ink cartridges from cheaper rivals

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Step one would probably be making this practice illegal in the first place, which, as far as I can tell, it isn't. Putting the cart before the horse to worry about who's liable for doing something legal.

Not my practice area, and I don't know all the facts. But if they sold printers and later disable those printers, it doesn't strike me as unreasonable to treat that as a fraud or swindle in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 1341, or as an unfair or deceptive trade practice under 15 U.S.C. § 45. If this were anything other than tech - if, say, IKEA sold you a bed frame that disintegrated the moment you used a non-IKEA mattress…

HP also talks about dynamic security upfront in their documentation and marketing materials.

Re: HP disables customers’ printers if they use ink cartridges from cheaper rivals

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think prison time is even what's needed here, I think these issues would resolve themselves if corporate fines were continually issued, rather than one-off lawsuits. For instance, a standing ruling that if your printer stops being able to print for no reason other than a contract breach, then the hardware is eligible for a refund. We don't need to put CEOs in prison for making consumer-hostile decisions, we j…

Corporate fines just end up being passed on to workers who had nothing to do with the decision. "We had to (lay off 10% of our workforce|cut worker pay by 10%|etc.) because of these unfair fines." Corporations aren't people--they can't make the decision to do unethical things. Yes, I understand the law, I'm saying the law is incorrect. People do unethical things, and people should be held responsible for their action…

They do not get "passed on to the workers." That's not how that works - not how any of that works.

A business needs a certain number of workers for a certain output. Those workers need to be paid a market amount for their skillset, for the amount of output. If the company does not have the funds to pay them - due to fines or competition or any other reason, the company lays off workers and reduces output and revenue - giving those sales to competitors, or goes out of business.

Yes, if the solution to "we broke printers" is to refund every single affected sale, the company will lay off workers, reduce output, and close down if that happens enough. Their competition will increase output to fill the unmet demand, and hire workers.

That literally is the point of the fine, and is a good thing, not a bad thing.

Re: HP disables customers’ printers if they use ink cartridges from cheaper rivals

#355

You could just not buy an HP printer. I use older Brother laserjet printers that I bought secondhand. A pack of 2 off-brand toner cartridges are about $20 on ebay. Enough people are dumb enough to overpay for ink that HP stays in business. Jailing a CEO won't cure stupidity.

Louis Rossman had a video about exactly this kind of attitude, and he persuaded me that it's not a good one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN44n_F_CPo Please do watch it. His point is that this kind of horrible kind of practices corrupt and spread through industries so they need to be dealt with ASAP if you want to prevent it becoming standard. Besides, you can't be savvy about all fields. Sure, you know about prin…

Louis Rossman has a business interest to say that. Interestingly, if you try asking him to fix a Dell laptop that was a gift from a deceased relative, he will refuse, no matter how much you are willing to pay. I know this from experience.

Re: HP disables customers’ printers if they use ink cartridges from cheaper rivals

#356

Did you know Brother makes really good printers that are inexpensive and live a long, happy, life? And their drivers aren't user hostile? This is one of those really good "vote with your wallets" situations.

Or buy a laser printer. They cost a bit more upfront, but a single toner cartridge lasts ages (and won't dry out or get used up in cleaning cycles), the printers are generally much more robust and longer lasting, and because laser printing isn't as patent-encumbered there's more actual competition and less outright user-hostile behavior.

Still avoid HP. I have an HP color laser printer. It worked flawlessly. Then the toner ran out and I replaced it with a 3rd party toner.

The printer just stopped working from most of my computers. I tried everything.

I was going to replace it, then decided to try a 1st party cartridge again. And it’s been basically flawless again.

Such a scam.

Re: HP disables customers’ printers if they use ink cartridges from cheaper rivals

#357
post #116

Where are the Open Source Hardware printers? Literally everybody (except printer makers) hates the printer landscape. All we'd need is to pool money to design a cost-effective open source hardware modular monochrome laser printer with open firmware.

You can use 3D printers to print 2D things:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuWZWAfBsm8

Some 3D printers are open source.

Unfortunately, I suspect that most would not be happy with the results.

Re: HP disables customers’ printers if they use ink cartridges from cheaper rivals

#358

Tomorrow's story should be: Customers "disable" their purchasing of HP printers in favor of cheaper, but not as cheap, rivals.

I decided to stop buying ink cartridges and switched to a monochrome laser printer years ago, but kept the old inkjet printer because it could do scans. I recently had to do a color print. Instead of buying new ink cartridges for my old HP printer, I purchased a new printer from Canon from walmart. Then I gave it away to someone who would use it.

More recently, I decided to buy a color laser printer that can do copying so I do not need the HP anymore and will have the option of doing color prints immediately no matter how many years pass. I brought a Canon. Unlike HP printers, it lets you opt into mechanisms that disable third party toner. I just did some of the first prints with it and it is really nice.

Re: HP disables customers’ printers if they use ink cartridges from cheaper rivals

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are we even sure that the customers legally own the printers? For instance, has anyone bothered to read the EULA that came with whatever bundled software someone installs now days to get the printer driver working? Even if there isn't surreptitious transfer of the hardware, they could certainly have a clause in there that authorizes them to do such things.

That's not how sale of physical products work. If you go to a store and buy a box and take it home, without the people at the store making you read and sign a contract, you own it.

At some point in the recent past, people's ideas of what constitute a contract changed. Previously, it was a firm agreement between two parties, who had met and discussed it, and made a formal declaration that the agreement had been reached (not necessarily by signing papers, but at least some gesture/voiced assent). Now?

Now people seem to think that the other party doesn't even have to be present. It's one-sided. No discussion or agreement need take place. No evidence need to be preserved that there was a discussion or agreement. It only protects one side of the deal, not both, and can be amended by one side with no recourse to the other. If you listen carefully, you catch wind of this idea all the time in daily life. Talking about gym memberships, cell phone plans, cable tv, etc.

The people talking about it are on the losing side, too. They don't seem hurt or angry or confused, they accept it as if it's the way things should be or have to be.

It's not entirely clear to me why this switched. It's not clear to me how no one ever seemed to be outraged over it.

I don't think it could be fixed. Sure, I can imagine legislation that might cut out the worst aspects of it (no, gyms can't demand that people sign year long contracts unless they also prove that they're using the existence of the contracts to justify the purchase of new equipment or the like). But without people at least grumbling about these things, there'd never be pressure for any legislation anyway. Let alone the likelihood that this is more of a matter for the courts than legislatures.

Given all this, I don't think that people are buying physical products anymore. How many exercise bikes or treadmills out there are cloud-connected and will stop working if the company goes out of business? Or if your "subscription" ends and you don't let it auto-renew?

The ship has sailed, I think, on the concept of personal property.

Re: HP disables customers’ printers if they use ink cartridges from cheaper rivals

#360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have to go to extraordinary and extreme measures to break out of the basic choices that you are offered for which the profits all go to the same group of people In this case we are talking about printers. There are literally dozens of printer makers.

And Berkshire Hathaway has an outsize position in the largest of them, HP. What else does BRK own, and thus influence via board and activist shareholder position that is in your home. This is the point. You can have a million “options” but if they all only benefit a handful of owners then no matter how you “vote” with your dollars it still makes the same people the same money. Again, you have to go to extremes to fin…

For what it is worth, HP barely still designs printers. Most of them are just rebadged Canons. They have a small number of models that are based on Samsung models that they got from their acquisition and an even smaller number of printers they actually made themselves. For the most part, when you buy a HP, you are buying a Canon printer with HP's label on it and HP firmware. HP is really just a middle man, and I am not sure why people keep buying their printers given that middlemen should be avoided.
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