Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

sbstatesman.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

351–360 of 614 posts

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#351

Post by chongli »

billiam wrote: post #151
tablespoon wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying it's not valuable, I'm saying not that many people would even notice, let alone care, if it disappeared. You may personally be one of the people who cares about the IA, or know a lot of people who care, but if you go to a shopping mall six months after the IA shuts down and ask people about it at random, you'd find that level of knowledge and caring is unusual. It's not the kind of too-big-to-fail that…

Sorry, but this is a reductionist argument. There are any number of things that could disappear without mall visitors knowing about it (NOAA, Earth's magnetic field, etc) but that doesn't mean they are not important for researchers, students, and others all over the world.

If earth’s magnetic field disappeared then the solar wind would begin to strip away the atmosphere. It’d be the beginning of the extinction of all life on the surface of the planet. It would also interfere with communications and knock out power grids everywhere. People would be bombarded with radiation and begin to get cancer at ever increasing rates. We’d also be able to see the aurorae at lower latitudes.

People would notice!

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#352

Post by ineedasername »

A Most Sensible Proposal for the Absolute Perpetuation of Copyright Laws:

It is a melancholy object to those who walk through this great Internet of ours when they behold the countless instances of piracy and blatant disregard for the sanctity of copyright laws. The noble and ever-vigilant lawmakers, in their infinite wisdom, have blessed us with these righteous statutes, designed to protect the creative genius of the chosen few and ensure their perpetual enrichment. I shall now humbly propose my own thoughts, which I hope will not be liable to the least objection, for the enhancement of copyright laws and the merciless suppression of those who would dare to infringe upon them.

I have been assured by a very knowing academic of my acquaintance that copyright infringement is a scourge upon our society, depriving deserving creators of their rightful earnings and perpetuating anarchy in the realm of intellectual property. It is of the utmost importance that we reinforce the importance of copyright, extending its reign to the furthest reaches of human creativity, even unto the most mundane and trivial expressions.

In order to accomplish this most necessary task, I propose that all human utterances, expressions, and gestures, be they written, spoken, or signed, be henceforth copyrighted, requiring the payment of a modest fee for their use. This fee shall be directed to the original creator, or their heirs, who shall retain control of their intellectual property for a period not less than one thousand years. This, I am confident, will provide ample incentive for the continuation of human creativity and innovation.

Furthermore, to prevent the heinous crime of piracy, it is imperative that all infants be implanted with a small monitoring device, connected to the great and mighty copyright database. This device shall track each individual's every expression, ensuring prompt and accurate payment to the appropriate copyright holder. Should any attempt be made to remove this device, or should an individual be found in violation of copyright laws, they shall be immediately and publicly flogged, that others may learn from their example.

For those who might object that this proposal would stifle creativity and hinder the sharing of knowledge and ideas, I say that such fears are baseless and utterly without merit. After all, it is only through the tireless efforts of our most esteemed creators that we, the unworthy masses, are granted access to the wisdom and brilliance of human thought. Surely, it is a small price to pay for the privilege of partaking in such exalted company.

I profess, in the sincerity of my heart, that I have not the least personal interest in endeavoring to promote this necessary work, having no other motive than the public good of my country, the advancement of the arts, and the salvation of mankind from the hideous specter of copyright infringement. Let us embrace these changes, for only through the eternal protection of copyright can we ensure the continued flourishing of human creativity and the preservation of our most treasured works for generations to come.

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#353

Post by bloppe »

I agree with the title and general sentiment, but the article comes across as a diatribe and the author does not seem to be arguing completely in good faith ("There’s no evidence the borrowing program scooped up any independent writers’ income" relies entirely on the impossibility of proving a counterfactual). I want more information about the nitty gritty details of the case; the implications of the ruling on the CDL and books besides the 133 involved in the suit. It's seems like a pretty narrow case; not an existential threat to the IA itself.

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#354

Post by astraloverflow »

int_19h wrote: post #327
GenericDev wrote: post #308

I'm so sick of modern businesses and their vampire approach on creativity and intelligent property. I see a lot of comments in this thread with what about-isms or "I don't care, we wouldn't miss anything", but these people are short-sighted. And to be honest the hacker news community is frequently the community I loathe to engage in these topics with. Because they are always looking forward with very little respect f…

I really wish we ditched the name "copyright" altogether because of its unfortunate implications. It's not actually a right - it's a privilege . The system is entirely artificial and wouldn't exist without active social and legal enforcement. And if the privilege is abused in ways that don't benefit society, then it can and should be curtailed or even revoked.

Personally I find the term "intellectual property" to be more messed up. It isn't property, it's a government granted monopoly on reproduction and distribution.

Calling it property allows for this bizarre concept of a form of "theft" that still leaves you with the thing "stolen" from you.

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#355

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

int_19h wrote: post #327
GenericDev wrote: post #308

I'm so sick of modern businesses and their vampire approach on creativity and intelligent property. I see a lot of comments in this thread with what about-isms or "I don't care, we wouldn't miss anything", but these people are short-sighted. And to be honest the hacker news community is frequently the community I loathe to engage in these topics with. Because they are always looking forward with very little respect f…

I really wish we ditched the name "copyright" altogether because of its unfortunate implications. It's not actually a right - it's a privilege . The system is entirely artificial and wouldn't exist without active social and legal enforcement. And if the privilege is abused in ways that don't benefit society, then it can and should be curtailed or even revoked.

Personally, I think copyright itself is a completely unnecessary concept in the information age.

The original idea was to promote creative works by authors by providing a limited term right to be the sole publisher of a work. This was important in the days where it actually cost money to publish and distribute things, as it ensured you wouldn't eat the cost of that only to have someone else make all the money by doing it cheaper.

Thing is, it doesn't cost money to publish and distribute anything anymore. I think the large number of free and fan works that exist are proof enough that creativity need not be incentivized by money, and to the extent that we want to monetarily reward works we find meaningful, there are mechanisms like Patreon or Github sponsorship to do that.

Will the production quality suffer without large corporations spending ludicrous amounts of money? Yeah, probably. But I don't see how that's something worthy of preserving for all the bullshit that copyright inflicts on our culture.

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#356

Post by textfiles »

moffkalast wrote: post #347
cobertos wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The legality has nothing do with the informations criticality or usefulness.

It would be also very useful for me to stroll into a random bank and take a few hundred thousand, but alas I cannot. ZLibrary and Pirate Bay are also incredibly useful. Sites have the right to remove content, and are sometimes legally required to. Sometimes even for good reason.

brb Adding "Interesting Passing Curiosity" to my resume

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#357

Post by modriano »

GenericDev wrote: post #308

I'm so sick of modern businesses and their vampire approach on creativity and intelligent property. I see a lot of comments in this thread with what about-isms or "I don't care, we wouldn't miss anything", but these people are short-sighted. And to be honest the hacker news community is frequently the community I loathe to engage in these topics with. Because they are always looking forward with very little respect f…

> I am so sick and tired of the copyright laws that play counter to productive creation and stymying efforts to preserve anything. The fact that I have to wait until people die until copyright is up is god awful.

So what's the right way to balance the need to preserve artistic/creative works and the rights of the creator to monitize or permit usage of their works? It seems rather gross to just say that the creator has no right to sell their work or object to some source copying their work and distributing it in a way that deprives the creator of profit.

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#358

Post by anigbrowl »

hermannj314 wrote: post #22

Is the premise of this opinion that if something is good, then courts should invent interpretations of laws to pretend the good thing is legal? The birthplace of the national park system took place through preservation acts passed by Congress, not wishful thinking. If IA is so amazing, why don't we codify and protect its existence through new law and not hope that a judge will squint favorably at copyright law?

[flagged]

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#359

Post by twblalock »

thaumaturgy wrote: post #208
twblalock wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the Internet Archive's job to be the first one to try to resolve fair use questions like this, and attempting to do so put the organization's orginal core mission at risk. They should have let someone else take the risk, and continued archiving the internet. That is all that most of their supporters expected of them, for good reason. Their attempt to pivot toward being a generic, universal library was bad sc…

Ah, I see, there seems to be a misunderstanding of what the Archive is about. They have been doing a lot more than just "archiving the internet" for a long time. Their blog posts from 2013 ( https://blog.archive.org/2013/ ) for example include writeups about magazines they had digitized, tv news they had recorded, and music. Montana State Library was uploading to the Archive in 2010 ( https://blog.archive.org/2010/12…

I'd bet that most people who care about this issue are primarily worried about losing the Wayback Machine. If that goes away, a lot of internet history will be lost forever. All those copyrighted works that IA was lending out won't disappear in the same fashion -- they will still be available from other sources.

IMO the Wayback Machine has always been the primary product, and most valuable part, of the Internet Archive. If IA wanted to do other things they should have done them via a separate legal entity to protect the Wayback Machine.

Re: If we lose the Internet Archive, we’re screwed

#360

Post by modriano »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #355
int_19h wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really wish we ditched the name "copyright" altogether because of its unfortunate implications. It's not actually a right - it's a privilege . The system is entirely artificial and wouldn't exist without active social and legal enforcement. And if the privilege is abused in ways that don't benefit society, then it can and should be curtailed or even revoked.

Personally, I think copyright itself is a completely unnecessary concept in the information age. The original idea was to promote creative works by authors by providing a limited term right to be the sole publisher of a work. This was important in the days where it actually cost money to publish and distribute things, as it ensured you wouldn't eat the cost of that only to have someone else make all the money by doin…

Creators still need to eat, even if publishing and distribution costs have dropped to nearly nothing.
Post reply on HN