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De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM

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Re: De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM

#351

Post by mixermachine »

pjerem wrote: post #316
josephg wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No one asked for this. What people want is a way to run amazon.com (and gmail and slack and so on), on any of their devices, securely, and without the fuss of installing anything. Ideally the first-time use of amazon.com should involve nothing more than typing "amazon" and hitting enter. It should to show content almost instantly. Satisfying that user need doesn't require a web browser. If OS vendors provided a way…

While I agree with you, I don’t think the people really wanted this. I mean, life wasn’t miserable when web apps didn’t existed. We could have lived in an alternative universe where we succeeded to teach people the basics of how to use the computer as a powerful tool for themselves. Instead, corporations rushed to make most of the things super easy to make billions on the way. I’d even say that this wasn’t really a p…

I disagree. When I want to deliver a piece of software to my parents I first think about a web solution (they are a symbol for me for >80% of PC users). I just uninstalled a browser tool bar from my step father's pc last weekend. There are simply to many bad actors out there. The browser sandbox works pretty well against them. My parents have become very hesitant to install anything, even iOS updates, because they don't like change and fear that they might do something wrong.

I agree that JS is not a gold standard. Still it works most of the time and with typescript stapled on top it is acceptable.

Time has proven again and again (not only in tech) that the simple solutions will prevail. Want to change it? Build a simpler and better solution. I don't like that too but that's human nature at work.

Re: De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM

#352

Post by pigsty »

mixedCase wrote: post #16
abraxas wrote: post #6

Let’s pause for a bit and dwell on the absurd amount of RAM it takes to run it even after this exercise. Anyone here remember when QNX shipped a demo in 2000 with a kernel, GUI, web browser and an email client on a single 3.5” floppy? The memory footprint was also a few megabytes. I’m not saying we should be staying within some miserly arbitrary constraints, but my goodness something that draws UI and manages process…

Hasn't it, though? HDR, fluid animations, monstrous resolutions, 3D everything, accessibility, fancy APIs for easier development allowing for more features, support for large amounts of devices, backwards compatibility, browsers are almost unrecognizable in featureset to the point they resemble an OS unto themselves, email clients have stayed mostly the same at least except for the part that they also ship a browser…

Installing command line tools on my Mac through homebrew takes up hundreds of megabytes each time I download anything.

I know that it installs various libraries. I do not know why those libraries are dozens of megabytes each.

Re: De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM

#353

Post by extra88 »

JoBrad wrote: post #230
extra88 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you enable Full Keyboard Access and learn how to use it?

I’ll check it out. But this seems to approach accessibility as a feature to be turned on or off. Most of what it enables, based on Apple docs, is not just enabled in Windows and many Linux window managers I’ve used, but it’s something that developers actively utilize.

That's not where macOS came from. For Windows and Linux, "in the beginning was the command line" but not for Macs.

There's plenty one can do in macOS and its native applications with a keyboard by default, those that need more can enable "Use keyboard navigation to move focus between controls." Those that need even more enable Full Keyboard Access. These settings aren't on be default because Apple has decided they'd just get in the way and/or confuse people who use the keyboard but rely on it less.

In Safari specifically, by default pressing Tab doesn't focus links as it does in every other browser because most people use a cursor to activate links, not the keyboard. There also tend to be a lot more links than what Tab does focus, form inputs.

Macs try to have just enough accessibility features enabled by default that anyone who needs more can get to the setting to turn it on. Something I just learned Macs have that other OS/hardware doesn't is audible feedback for the blind to login when a Mac is turned on while full disk encryption is enabled.

I'm not claiming Apple gets everything right or that their approach is the best, I'm just trying to describe the basics of what's there and the outlook driving the choices.

Re: De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM

#354

Post by unraveller »

This version is bloat compared to superlite 'divinity' (1.5GB iso capable of running smoothly on 1.5GB RAM, not serviceable) and x-lite 'resurgence' (2.5GB iso - fully upgradeable back to standard). Some quirks here and there but less clicks and less hassle than anything official.

https://youtu.be/Nh7po_P8qNU

Re: De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM

#355

Post by snickerer »

yeuxardents wrote: post #205
TacticalCoder wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let’s pause for a bit and dwell on the absurd amount of RAM it takes to run it even after this exercise. I agree and I find the apologists to be completely wrong. I run a modern system: 38" screen, 2 Gbit/s fiber to the home. I'm not "stuck in the past" with a 17" screen or something. The thing flies. It's screaming fast as it should be. But I run a lean Debian Linux system, with a minimal window manager. It's defi…

Would you mind expounding upon what you have done to achieve 'leanness' in this Debian system? Thanks!

I think the fast feeling and the low ram footprint comes mostly from the choice of the window manager. Just use XFCE and you'll be fine.

Re: De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM

#356

Post by devinprater »

grishka wrote: post #31
mixedCase wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hasn't it, though? HDR, fluid animations, monstrous resolutions, 3D everything, accessibility, fancy APIs for easier development allowing for more features, support for large amounts of devices, backwards compatibility, browsers are almost unrecognizable in featureset to the point they resemble an OS unto themselves, email clients have stayed mostly the same at least except for the part that they also ship a browser…

> HDR, fluid animations, monstrous resolutions That's the job of the GPU driver, mostly. > 3D everything That's the desktop compositor. Windows 7 already had one and ran on 1 GB of RAM. > accessibility Not everyone needs it, so it should be an optional installable component for those who do. > fancy APIs for easier development allowing for more features That still use win32 under the hood. Again, .net has existed for…

An optional installable component until you have a blind person doing tech support and they have to walk the tech illiterate person through installing the accessibility stack lol. Oh until you suddenly go blind from a condision or accident and have to mouse your way through the interface, blind, to install that component. Ugh ableism.

Re: De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM

#357

Post by extra88 »

wizofaus wrote: post #249
extra88 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it seemed straight up broken because it couldn't reach my site: https://wave.webaim.org/ It worked for me, it found lots of color contrast problems (white-on-light purple has low contrast). https://wave.webaim.org/report#/https://kronis.dev/ WAVE is also available as a browser extension. Accessibility checkers can be helpful, particularly for catching basic errors before they ship. The large majority of accessibili…

"The large majority of accessibility problems a site can have cannot be identified by software" Bold statement. I used to work in exactly that area and the reality is humans often simply don't bother finding many of the accessibility issues that automated tools can and do find. Even if such a tool isn't able to accurately pinpoint every possible issue, and inevitably gives a number of false positives (the classic bei…

I currently work in this area (web accessibility) and am just repeating what is commonly understood. When considering what WCAG criteria cover (which is not even everything that could pose a barrier to people with disabilities), most failures to meet the criteria cannot be identified by software alone.

For example, the classic I would say is not whether an image needs an alt attribute or not but whether an image's alt attribute value is a meaningful equivalent to the image in the context where it appears.

I'm not sure what kind of "resources" you're referring to. If you mean computing resources (CPU, RAM, etc.) standard, contemporary computers do seem to have enough for current assistive technologies, one doesn't need to buy a higher end computer to run them. If you mean OS resources for supplying assistive technologies and accessibility APIs, mainstream OS's are decent but specifically for screen readers there's a lot of room for improvement.

Re: De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM

#358

Post by ahtihn »

grishka wrote: post #281
bee_rider wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t like the direction GUIs have gone either, and think the JavaScript-ization of everything has been pretty dumb. But it seems that bloat is doing well in the market. Users might not care about developer experience, but everything is a trade off: developer time is a cost, the cost of producing software is an input into how much it needs to cost. Users seem to want features delivered quickly, without much regard…

Users just don't have much say in the matter. Case in point: Discord and Slack are atrocious UX-wise. You're still forced to use them because, as with any walled-garden communication service, you aren't the one making this choice.

Discord UX is better than anything there was before, which is why it replaced all the other software people used before in gaming communities.

Re: De-Bloated Windows 11 Build Runs on 2GB of RAM

#359

Post by martin_a »

dbtc wrote: post #232
martin_a wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or if they desperately need photoshop or whatever, get a mac. I'm kind of in that situation and I don't thing going with Mac and the Apple ecosystem really is better than trying to use Windows 10 as long as possible on an older Thinkpad.

What about the gimp?

Didn't really get the hang of it to phrase it that way.

Everybody who's using tools like Photoshop professionally has been "shaped" to feel well in the Adobe ecosystem. I doubt that's good but that's how it is.

Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign, they all feel and work similiar which helps with transitioning/switching between these tools without big issues.

Now take Gimp, Inkscape and Scribus against that. Everything looks different and probably works different, too. I need to get work done, not learn three seperate programs. Also Scribus seems to be dead, latest Dev blog entry is from 2016.

Serif is doing great work with Affinity, but Adobe is still going strong and defines the professional industry. As long as that's the case we're stuck with Windows/Macs for professional work.

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