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Fentanyl vaccine tested in rats

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Re: Fentanyl vaccine tested in rats

#351

Post by opportune »

hammock wrote: post #178
t433 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legalize everything and produce it pharmaceutically, and this problems pretty much disappears.

>produce it pharmaceutically They are... in Mexico... with expert training from China...

The problem is not actually the production of the fentanyl itself, but the way it’s mixed in with “heroin” or pressed into pills (plus all the likely accidental contamination from using the same equipment to process fentanyl and stuff like cocaine). If the mixture is not done well, it creates hotspots that can easily cause an overdose due to a much higher density of fentanyl.

And also, this part is not necessarily done pharmaceutically, so there is no standardization of dosage or strength. Which can in part incentivize producers to progressively increase the ratio of fentanyl to so theirs is “stronger”.

Re: Fentanyl vaccine tested in rats

#352

Post by miguel-muniz »

shaunxcode wrote: post #109

The real issue here that people don't seem to want to face is the WHY. Why do so many people want to check out of life completely by abusing medicine? If we don't address that nothing is going to stop the drug abuse let alone the relapse and overdose. I'm not talking about "more 12 step" here but more of a Frommian psychoanalytic approach. You are broken because society is broken. You have the ability to change yours…

Something else I wonder is how have we managed to convince generations that smoking is not only horrible to your health and frowned upon but alcohol is acceptable?

Re: Fentanyl vaccine tested in rats

#353

Post by nibbleshifter »

CuriouslyC wrote: post #119
exabrial wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would suggest becoming actually educated before developing strong opinions. The drug is extremely useful and saves lives in a clinical setting; chances are it will save your life or someone you know and love. It's literally used _every hour_ around the clock in ERs. Nearly all problematic Fentanyl in the US is illegally imported and created by third parties overseas. It is not manufactured by those big bad US Pharm…

Yup, people don't realize but whereas a brick of heroin is a lot, a brick of fentanyl can supply a decent sized city. Because small amounts are so valuable, it's super easy to smuggle, and for a long time the Chinese would produce and sell it at rock bottom prices (I'm guessing that was state sponsored as a finger to the west for opium and the opium wars, which they're still very sore about)

> I'm guessing that was state sponsored as a finger to the west

I've heard this only from people with no experience dealing with the Chinese chemical industry.

I don't think people fully realise how hands off the state typically was in the last couple of decades - you could get Chinese contract labs or chemical suppliers to make and ship you almost anything, and they would even mislabel it to get it through customs.

There were dozens of labs that were churning out batches of whatever the latest "research chemical" "not for human consumption" was, for the western consumer market.

No state sponsor needed - the business was extremely lucrative for all involved, and the materials absolutely dirt cheap to produce.

There was a solid 10 or so years where simply picking out a new analogue and having it manufactured to order was a de-facto licence to print money due to how long it took for a novel substance to be banned.

Re: Fentanyl vaccine tested in rats

#354

Post by MrYellowP »

shaunxcode wrote: post #109

The real issue here that people don't seem to want to face is the WHY. Why do so many people want to check out of life completely by abusing medicine? If we don't address that nothing is going to stop the drug abuse let alone the relapse and overdose. I'm not talking about "more 12 step" here but more of a Frommian psychoanalytic approach. You are broken because society is broken. You have the ability to change yours…

Fixing society doesn't increase revenue. The opposite, actually.

For example: The more people are depressive, the more pills can be sold. If people kill themselves due to depression, that's too bad, but they didn't buy any pills to begin with.

Diabetes is great, because people depend on insulin. A never-ending money maker! Fat people are great! They eat more, thus spend more! Some of them get their fat surgically sucked out of their bodies, which also pays! When they get more and more sick, they need more and more medicine, which pays even more!

The transhumanism movement is awesome, because transitioned people require pills! Every day!

Sadness? There's a pill for that!

Drug addicts? Lets invent a vaccine for that!

Fantastic!

Society isn't getting fixed, because nobody actually has any interest in that. Those in power/money certainly don't give a fuck and rather want more money, while the actual people are mostly too stupid to figure out that the whole system needs changing.

Instead they whine, complain and protest and go voting, without realizing that it does basically nothing. Yes, voting actually does nothing. We didn't get to this point because voting helps anything. We got here, because voting doesn't matter.

Decades of evidence lay in front of everyone out there to see, yet for some reason every couple years people actually believe their button-pressing/their X-making actually gives them power over what's going to happen!

There's no vote allowing you to change who pays all the money to the politicians, law makers and judges. There's no vote that allows you to change the underlying corruption that's going on. There's no vote that enables you to decide what actually happens with your money.

You're fucking hilarious. You're not wrong per se, but also hilarious.

"Society needs fixing!!!111" well then get together with enough people and fucking fix it.

Politicians won't do it for you.

Better get your guns ready, btw, because it's definitely not going to happen peacefully.

Re: Fentanyl vaccine tested in rats

#355

Post by akira2501 »

pixl97 wrote: post #220
akira2501 wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The real issue here that people don't seem to want to face is the WHY. Drugs get you high. Ants get drunk, goats chase psychedelic lichen, and dolphins pass around puffer fish like a dutchie. > Why do so many people want to check out of life completely by abusing medicine The short term benefits always outweigh the short term costs, but we're moving to a point in history where even it even seemingly outweighs the l…

>You have to reduce the inflow of drugs. And this is how we get fentanyl. Why import 2 tons of drugs when you can import 2 ounces with the same power. Attempting to reduce the inflow has just created a violent black market and a dangerous police state.

There is so much reductive thinking in this thread, it is painful. Fentanyl has been on the market since the 1960. The deaths started spiking in 2014. Did we step up enforcement majorly in 2014? Or did something else start this rise?

Why import anything if you could produce it domestically? Is it possible that basic enforcement has obvious impact? If we allowed labs to produce it domestically, do you think we would see more, or less? What mechanism drives that outcome? What if this is already starting to happen?

The creation of the DEA has had a negative value outcome with respect to the amount of drugs in our society, I'll grant you, but I have a feeling that's due to it being setup as a paramilitary organization as opposed to a knowledge and tactical care based organization focused on the ground level issues surrounding actual users and user/dealers.

Re: Fentanyl vaccine tested in rats

#356

Post by bArray »

shaunxcode wrote: post #109

The real issue here that people don't seem to want to face is the WHY. Why do so many people want to check out of life completely by abusing medicine? If we don't address that nothing is going to stop the drug abuse let alone the relapse and overdose. I'm not talking about "more 12 step" here but more of a Frommian psychoanalytic approach. You are broken because society is broken. You have the ability to change yours…

I would ask a different 'why', which is 'why is fentanyl so easily accessible?'. We know where it's made, how it gets into the US, a long list of reasons for why people start taking it. But why hasn't the supply of fentanyl to the US been restricted?

Given how many lives this destroys, how many people it takes out of the potential workforce, how many social problems this causes (crime, homelessness, exasperated mental health issues) - why isn't there the political will to change this?

Re: Fentanyl vaccine tested in rats

#357

Post by defrost »

bArray wrote: post #356
shaunxcode wrote: post #109

The real issue here that people don't seem to want to face is the WHY. Why do so many people want to check out of life completely by abusing medicine? If we don't address that nothing is going to stop the drug abuse let alone the relapse and overdose. I'm not talking about "more 12 step" here but more of a Frommian psychoanalytic approach. You are broken because society is broken. You have the ability to change yours…

I would ask a different 'why', which is 'why is fentanyl so easily accessible?'. We know where it's made, how it gets into the US, a long list of reasons for why people start taking it. But why hasn't the supply of fentanyl to the US been restricted? Given how many lives this destroys, how many people it takes out of the potential workforce, how many social problems this causes (crime, homelessness, exasperated menta…

I answered this at length in a forum some months back and sadly can't find the text (for now).

The abridged version is: there too much money to be made.

Fentanyl has gone from direct primary import (which was blocked) to banning of exporting precursor drugs from bulk suppliers in China (to slow down | stop Mexican drug labs from mixing them to make Fentanyl) to where things are today ...

relatively mobile "popup" drug lab networks that start with bulk pre precursor drugs to make the precursor drugs that are funneled to final product labs.

It's a hell of a whack a mole game across Mexico, the USofA and Canada with a process that's tough to break, the initial drugs used are too useful for too many things to ban outright and the production aspect is broken down into many replaceable parts.

( I had references to most of those stages in the original comment, apologies for not having them to hand ).

Re: Fentanyl vaccine tested in rats

#358

Post by emiliobumachar »

anonymouskimmer wrote: post #172
encoderer wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans were not evolved to resist these kinds of poisons. Nothing like this exists in nature. It’s an extremely potent chemical.

It's not that nothing like this exists in nature, it's that evolutionarily speaking nothing like this existed in the areas human first evolved. Or if they did, we either evolved to resist them, thus no longer see them as toxic, or we're still in an arms race with the life that produces them (which means they would be much less toxic than fentanyl, but still toxic). Plants (and fungi, and animals) evolved to create no…

Could you please link to or expand about plants producing toxins that specifically keep animals from breeding? It's news to me, and a web search has failed me. Is that long-term pest control, or something else?

Re: Fentanyl vaccine tested in rats

#359

Post by ethanbond »

asveikau wrote: post #326
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They don't stop because they cannot stop due to a physical addiction. What you wrote here is actually the issue I was trying to communicate: The notion that addicts are helpless and that the drug and/or society has already determined their outcome is the problem. This sets up a defeatist attitude where people feel like they shouldn't even try to overcome addiction because their contribution to the equation is 0%. D…

> What doesn't work is telling people "it's not your fault" > trying to comfort people by blaming their problems on purely exterior sources These are not the same thing. The former is literal truth. The latter hints at intention, blame, denial. It's not their fault, but they can get through it. You can hold these two simultaneously.

Why is it not someone’s fault when they get addicted after choosing to do a known-addictive substance? “Not their fault” certainly doesn’t describe all addicts.

They don’t need to be faultless to deserve compassion.

Re: Fentanyl vaccine tested in rats

#360

Post by CuriouslyC »

nibbleshifter wrote: post #353
CuriouslyC wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, people don't realize but whereas a brick of heroin is a lot, a brick of fentanyl can supply a decent sized city. Because small amounts are so valuable, it's super easy to smuggle, and for a long time the Chinese would produce and sell it at rock bottom prices (I'm guessing that was state sponsored as a finger to the west for opium and the opium wars, which they're still very sore about)

> I'm guessing that was state sponsored as a finger to the west I've heard this only from people with no experience dealing with the Chinese chemical industry. I don't think people fully realise how hands off the state typically was in the last couple of decades - you could get Chinese contract labs or chemical suppliers to make and ship you almost anything, and they would even mislabel it to get it through customs.…

I've had dealings with Chinese chemical producers. You don't open a business or sell things to foreign countries in China without the CCP's knowledge and some small degree of consent. Considering the risks and the degree of monitoring I doubt Chinese chemical producers would try to pull a fast one on the party. The party also almost certainly provided capital for a lot of these businesses.
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