Isn't this the forced IP transfer that I used to see so many complaints about.
TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia
351–360 of 543 posts
Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia
#352Earlier quoted context omitted.
China has been a country for longer than the history of European civilization. They do not subscribe to the view that nothing that happened before 1945 matters the way Americans seem to.
China also makes the claim of 1000s of years of history but Taiwans inclusion in that history is about 200 years. And of that less than 10 was a province that China still didn’t govern or control. It was more or less just something they said to deter Japan. So historically China has never ruled over Taiwan. Japan has more claim to Taiwan than China as it actually ruled and controlled Taiwan.
Not if you're a nationalist, since most of Taiwan is ethnically Han, not Japanese.
Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia
#353Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is categorically NOT a huge win for the stock. This is all happening because of US subsidies. The US has more expensive workers who are overall worse at the job and don't have the expertise to be compete with the people in Taiwan. The subsidies only make this a viable option for political reasons. The decision to create a fab in Arizona is strictly speaking unprofitable and essentially a economically irrational mo…
> The US has more expensive workers who are overall worse at the job and don't have the expertise to be compete with the people in Taiwan. GMAFB. Intel has several of their fabs in the Phoenix metro area, they’re another 3-5 major players in the area, and there’s a talent pipeline from the local University into these companies. Intel’s problems aren’t an inability to fab, it’s an inability to translate their design l…
It's universally well known that Asian workers work harder and can be paid less.
It's not just about intels capabilities. It's about economic wage standards. The cost is just too high in the US.
That being said tsmc workers in Taiwan are by far more capable then Intel this is proven by the 3nm process of which Intel is completely incapable of achieving.
Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia
#354Earlier quoted context omitted.
There is still a lot of demand for the not-latest-generation, "long tail" fab processes. Much of the long tail manufacturing was (is?) what the chip shortage was about, rather than the current generation. A good example is the automotive industry. It doesn't typically move quickly or frequently onto newer generation processes as that requires R&D time and other expenses. However, these have been some of the worst sho…
Does "one generation before current" count as "long tail", though? The chip shortage in products like cars has been for much simpler chips, AFAIK. The article says Apple, AMD, and Nvidia are looking to source from the new plant. Aren't they canonical examples of companies that are always looking for the latest and greatest? Why would they be interested in an prev-gen chip?
Automotive industry is still using 90nm chips. It's not even the generation before the current one. They have long production runs and require stability, and they also prefer to use standardized parts across many production runs.
Defense also uses older chips. Don't ask what kind of chips are in Amraam missiles or the F-35 -- although the F-35 is getting a technology refresh now (after a 14 year production run).
Only in bleeding edge consumer devices does it make sense to keep changing chips. In other systems, production runs can last 20 years and the life of the asset can be 40 years or more, and you want the same spare parts available throughout the entire expected life of all assets produced. And then when you look at fixed assets, such as thermal power stations, then you are looking at even longer time horizons.
Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia
#355Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is largely because Europe became infatuated with austerity and its industrial policy has suffered as a consequence. You want big, cutting-edge fabs? You’re going to need to spend public money getting them off the ground. TSMC’s success is in part due to Taiwan itself designating semiconductors as a key strategic economic interest years ago and making investments/tax breaks accordingly
That's an interesting thesis - but, for example, Greece with its "let's piss money away without control for anything and everything" somehow hasn't become an industrial powerhouse either... so it might be that austerity (or lack thereof), in general, isn't really such an important factor?
Greece has other, deeper problems to fix before it makes any attempts in creating any form of industry. The "pissing money away" happened because of internal problems, which can be attributed to corruption and cultural aversion to any form of entrepreneurship that goes beyond the scale of mom 'n' pop stores.
I am not trying to absolve Greece from its liabilities, just pointing out that Greece is a bad example for austerity not playing a significant role in slowing industrial development.
Source: I am Greek living in Greece.
Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia
#356Earlier quoted context omitted.
There's a difference between a nation and a state, although the two are nearly always synonymous in the modern world. Taiwan and China being one nation is the policy of the governments of both China and Taiwan. Of course Taiwanese nationalism is it's own thing now, but the Taiwanese people seeing themselves as not Chinese is a relatively recent phenomenon - it's been functionally independent for less than 100 years,…
> Taiwan and China being one nation is the policy of the governments of both China and Taiwan. No one in Taiwan and not even the current government consider China/Taiwan together. When KMT fled and created the constitution they claim China. Taiwan is now stuck in limbo because the people just want to live their lives in peace and already consider themselves Taiwanese and independent. But if they change the constituti…
The pro-independence party just suffered a major loss in local elections. The prime-minister who invited Nancy Pelosi for a provocative visit had to resign. Looks like Taiwanese people are not very enthusiastic about becoming a new Ukraine.
Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia
#357Great news for the US. Great news for Apple, AMD, and Nvidia. Not so good news for Taiwan. The fact that the whole tech world is dependent on chips produced in Hsinchu is a huge advantage for the safety of Taiwan. Moving the fabs and talent further away from the island will not benefit the people of Taiwan at all. TSMC with its global influence has been a huge factor for guaranteeing safety of the island and peace in…
It is categorically NOT a huge win for the stock. This is all happening because of US subsidies. The US has more expensive workers who are overall worse at the job and don't have the expertise to be compete with the people in Taiwan. The subsidies only make this a viable option for political reasons. The decision to create a fab in Arizona is strictly speaking unprofitable and essentially a economically irrational mo…
> The US has more expensive workers who are overall worse at the job and don't have the expertise to be compete with the people in Taiwan.
Putting the rest of your statement aside, this is a very silly thing to say. The United States invented the IC and started silicon age. Integrated circuits made in Silicon Valley were literally on the moon at the same time that Taiwan was still an incredibly poor country living under martial law.
Maybe today there aren't the exact people in the US to compete with Taiwan on this chipmaking process, but that doesn't mean the US lacks the ability to compete. It's not about general country-wide work ethic. If the right person to get the job done is a one-in-a-million person... well the US has 330 of them vs 23 in Taiwan.
Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia
#358Earlier quoted context omitted.
Does TSMC "own" the technology? Because their fabs are wholly dependent on ASML, a Dutch company. And they're using that to produce tech that's designed in the west as well.
Right, only culturally European people know how to do anything. Those Taiwanese are just factory workers, no expertise at all, that's why Intel is in such good shape these days. Chipmaking is obviously so easy the only reason we let them do it is to keep the price down. /s
They obviously have expertise, the point is that the parent was implying that all the tech involved is exclusively TSMC's, which is also wrong. The parent literally said the US is trying to "steal" TSMC's technology...
So maybe read my comment in context instead of implying racism right off the bat SMH.
Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia
#359Earlier quoted context omitted.
Does TSMC "own" the technology? Because their fabs are wholly dependent on ASML, a Dutch company. And they're using that to produce tech that's designed in the west as well.
Well if TSMC is not doing anything valuable then someone tell the shareholders because ASML is worth almost only half of TSMC.
Why is Apple worth more than ARM and TSMC?
Re: TSMC to make 4nm chips in Arizona for Apple, AMD, Nvidia
#360Earlier quoted context omitted.
Without the staff from TSMC, the Chinese Government probably can't run those facilities. I suspect there isn't much probability that china could mobilize and take those facilities as-is with no sabotage. The US has taken steps recently to reduce china's ability to make chips domestically. See - https://www.seattletimes.com/business/chip-gear-maker-asml-a...
I've read that TSMC fabs are filled with explosives to set off if China invades so they wouldn't get their hands on tech and equipment. I'm pretty certain that's true, given how important TSMC tech is.
Nothing will happen to TSMC fabs if invasion happens. In fact most likely they will operate during invasion without interruption.
Seems unlikely? Right now Russian gas goes through pipeline in Ukraine to Europe. Either side miraculously avoided disabling it through entire war.