The United States’ Unamendable Constitution • Hacker News Board

Re: The United States’ Unamendable Constitution

#351

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Oct 27, 2022, 4:48 AM UTC

nyokodo wrote: post #326

hedora wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Population shifts mean an ever-shrinking minority of the population can block changes to the constitution. It’s barely even double digits at this point. Constitutional amendments were supposed to be easier than right to rebellion. That’s not really the case any more. At the same time, the supreme court is just ignoring the law, over the objections of 66-75% of the population (depending on the ruling). These are dark…

> These are dark times for US democracy The US system has little d democratic aspects but it is not a democracy. It was intentionally setup to protect the minority from the majority in critical respects like constitutional amendments. Also, population shifts are ongoing and the coastal blue populations are the most rapidly aging in the country and the increasingly red US born Hispanic populations are the most rapidly…

> the coastal blue populations are the most rapidly aging in the country

No, they aren’t. [0]

> the increasingly red US born Hispanic populations are the most rapidly growing.

The Hispanic population isn’t clearly “increasingly red”. [1] It is also growing slower (between the 2010 and 2020 censuses, 23%) than the Asian (35.5%), American Indian (27.1%), and Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander (27.8%) groups, as well as various multiracial groups. [2]

[0] https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2022/populati...

[1] https://news.gallup.com/opinion/polling-matters/389093/hispa...

[2] https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2021/08/improved-race...

Re: The United States’ Unamendable Constitution

#352

Post by anon291 » Thu, Oct 27, 2022, 4:48 AM UTC

HWR_14 wrote: post #348

anon291 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a great thing because where you live matters. I have no idea what's going on in the wilds of Wyoming. Wyomingites do. If Californians were represented by population, these lands would be managed by people who do not live there. That is terrible. IMO, the main thing wrong with us federalism is that the western states ought to be broken up

> I have no idea what's going on in the wilds of Wyoming. Wyomingites do. If Californians were represented by population, these lands would be managed by people who do not live there. Given how few people live year-round in Wyoming, but how many Californians own vacation ranches there, that actually might make sense.

People living in a place should have the sole right to determine what happens to that place. Vacation homes don't give you a right to vote, and they shouldn't. This is nuts.

Re: The United States’ Unamendable Constitution

#353

Post by PaulDavisThe1st » Thu, Oct 27, 2022, 4:52 AM UTC

kepler1 wrote: post #332

voltaireodactyl wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion the unacceptable, repetitive, fundamentalist-led attacks on the very institution of voting itself would take far more precedence than the social issues you listed, although I know social media leans hard on them. If you truly feel those are the most pressing issues in your mind/spheres, I would urge you to remember that social media is largely an echo chamber designed to distract from the actual issues,…

Please say what about voting has been fundamentally attacked at its core that rises to the level of amending the Constitution? That voters are required to (gasp) verify their identification, once every 4 years, if certain conditions aren't met? That drop boxes for ballots were reduced in number? Gerrymandering? Just look at some of the district designs in New York. I might remind you that all the things that are crit…

> Gerrymandering? Just look at some of the district designs in New York.

Nobody said that this was a republican-led-state problem only. That doesn't stop it from being a major threat to democracy, nor does it a priori mean that the Democrats do it as much or to the extent that Republicans do.

> I might remind you that all the things that are criticized in Republican states for suppressing the vote, exist as rules in certain Democratic states as well.

Do tell. No food or drink supplies allowed while standing outside in line for hours? Where's that in the Democratic states?

Re: The United States’ Unamendable Constitution

#354

Post by pasquinelli » Thu, Oct 27, 2022, 4:52 AM UTC

lettergram wrote: post #340

pasquinelli wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the ussr and china both developed from feudalism without capitalism and lifted a huge number of people out of poverty. not advocating their system, (not not-advocating either), but they are counter examples.

hmmm arguably capitalism was still required. Both the USSR and China both went through (at different times!) great famines due to their collectivization of agriculture. Further, their agricultural practices in general were learned from the capitalist countries and neither produced / produce enough. Both the USSR and China did / currently rely heavily on food imports. Arguably, they only escaped feudalism because capi…

> Both the USSR and China both went through (at different times!) great famines due to their collectivization of agriculture.

didn't the ussr squeeze those farmers so tight to get industral equipment out of the capitalists by trading grain? yes, the capitalists graciously supported the ussr, the cold war was actually a big hug!

because they traded with capitalist nations they couldn't have existed without capitalism. sure, actually that was the theory at the time, that industrialized germany would join them in a mutually beneficial relationship. that didn't happen for some reason.

but what if we flip it? because capitalist nations traded with slave states and feudal nations, they couldn't have existed without slavery and feudalsim. because capitalist nations trade with violently repressive plutocracies, they can't exist without violently repressive plutocracy. seem fair?

how were china and the ussr organized is the actual question.

maybe you assume technological development was caused by capitalism. personally i think that's putting the cart before the horse.

Re: The United States’ Unamendable Constitution

#355

Post by Nursie » Thu, Oct 27, 2022, 4:53 AM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #222

Author complains these amendments cannot be passed because of political polarisation. That polarisation is the very reason why those amendments shouldn't pass. You can only change the constitution if there is a consensus, by design. If you want to make a change that half the country is dead against, all the systems of balance of power will work against it (two chambers - one by headcount the other by states, filibust…

Part of the problem in the last half century does appear to be that consensus is itself no longer desirable or possible - the two-party system in the US appears to have an element of adversarial behaviour which is purely for the sake of being against the other guy.

So it's not so much that half the country is dead against particular measures because of their merits or values, but they will be set against change it simply because the other side wants it.

Re: The United States’ Unamendable Constitution

#356

Post by PaulDavisThe1st » Thu, Oct 27, 2022, 4:53 AM UTC

kccqzy wrote: post #259

anonymousiam wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly! In addition, the 10th amendment should prevent, but has not stopped Congress from passing most of the laws it has passed. https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/amendment-10/

The tenth amendment is certainly in effect. It's just that we have an expanded definition of commerce those days.

Not just definition. By any measure, or any definition, we have massively expanded inter-state commerce these days.

Re: The United States’ Unamendable Constitution

#357

Post by jessaustin » Thu, Oct 27, 2022, 4:54 AM UTC

prottog wrote: post #107

colinmhayes wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

That's glib. Do you know much about Mississippi? Do you live there, or have close friends who do? I live in a neighboring state and it's unthinkable that the people of this state would bring back slavery or segregation. In fact, a much bigger portion of the population here lives amidst people of other races -- break bread with them, celebrate each others' big life events -- compared to certain other states where an a…

When will Jackson have drinkable water?

Re: The United States’ Unamendable Constitution

#358

Post by voltaireodactyl » Thu, Oct 27, 2022, 4:55 AM UTC

kepler1 wrote: post #332

voltaireodactyl wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion the unacceptable, repetitive, fundamentalist-led attacks on the very institution of voting itself would take far more precedence than the social issues you listed, although I know social media leans hard on them. If you truly feel those are the most pressing issues in your mind/spheres, I would urge you to remember that social media is largely an echo chamber designed to distract from the actual issues,…

Please say what about voting has been fundamentally attacked at its core that rises to the level of amending the Constitution? That voters are required to (gasp) verify their identification, once every 4 years, if certain conditions aren't met? That drop boxes for ballots were reduced in number? Gerrymandering? Just look at some of the district designs in New York. I might remind you that all the things that are crit…

When one side repeatedly accuses the process of being rigged, that has the effect of lowering overall belief in the system.

And when every objectively proven, convicted case is perpetrated by that SAME side, yet never condemned by said side, the only possible conclusion is that said side is operating in bad faith.

When one entire half of the political equation is no longer operating in good faith, it has a cascading effect throughout society. Civilization exists because the majority believe in it, no more, no less. All of recorded history would seem to support this theory.

And to put your mind at ease, I assure you I speak from my life experience rather than any internet talking points.

For a simple example, take gerrymandering in my home state of NC. A complex issue, but if one does the work to understand what’s going on, everything I’m saying is clear.

Research is required because the party in power would prefer it NOT be easy to comprehend the big picture — thus my patience with your high-handed-while-largely-misinformed statement of your understanding.

I am curious: how do you explain away the most recent former president demanding votes from Georgia? To continue to treat/request support from such an individual is, to me, an absolute signifier that one does not consider the right to vote to be a fundamental issue, in my opinion.

Not to mention the tomfoolery with ballots going missing, again in NC, due to the actions of an entrenched conservative “deep state” (for lack of a better term).

Nevertheless, I support your right to your opinion! I do wish conservative leadership felt the same way.

I hope this comment leaves you feeling more fully informed of the issues, so you don’t feel the need to bring up bathrooms in the context of rebellion again :).

Re: The United States’ Unamendable Constitution

#359

Post by Nursie » Thu, Oct 27, 2022, 4:58 AM UTC

TeeMassive wrote: post #335

voltaireodactyl wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion the unacceptable, repetitive, fundamentalist-led attacks on the very institution of voting itself would take far more precedence than the social issues you listed, although I know social media leans hard on them. If you truly feel those are the most pressing issues in your mind/spheres, I would urge you to remember that social media is largely an echo chamber designed to distract from the actual issues,…

> In my opinion the unacceptable, repetitive, fundamentalist-led attacks on the very institution of voting itself would take far more precedence than the social issues you listed How are they attacked? From what I've seen, all the "voter suppression" stories coming from the US are all things we have in place in other modern democracies like in Canada. We have voter ID, we have to make sure we are registered, we can o…

Voter suppression in the US appears to take on other forms, reducing the number of polling places in urban centres such that it can take several hours to cast a vote, restricting their hours, making it illegal to provide water for those in the queue, that sort of thing.

Multi-pronged attacks which try to ensure only 'your' people get to participate.

As an Australian resident and a British citizen, it seems outrageous to me - I've never had to take more than about fifteen minutes out of my day to vote in the UK, and in Australia voting is fast, mandatory and always run on a weekend so that most people can get to it. They even usually have a charity barbecue outside the polling place!

Other, indirect attacks on the system include Trump's big lie, the stated intention of the republican candidate for the secretary of state of Arizona to return the state to republican control because he thinks it's what the people really want regardless of the outcome of the actual vote (because clearly the vote is rigged!), the various "alternative electors" that republicans attempted to send to congress during the aftermath of the last presidential election etc etc. The US right is currently mounting an attack on US democracy itself in various ways, to try and work around the system and usurp democratic mandate.

Re: The United States’ Unamendable Constitution

#360

Post by jessaustin » Thu, Oct 27, 2022, 4:58 AM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #124

dragonwriter wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No intelligent person thinks that we got 250 years of relative peace and prosperity by randon luck Yes, to the extent that the US had more peace and prosperity than, say, European states, most intelligent people with even modest knowledge attribute that not to random chance but to three major factors: (1) The Pacific Ocean, (2) The Atlantic Ocean, (3) The extremely small number of remotely near-peer powers that hav…

The point was governmental stability, not protection against invasion. If you look at, say, France, in the same time they've had their revolution, then Napoleon, then back to monarchy, then back and forth with republics and emperors and such. They're now on the fifth version of their republic. In the same time, the US has had the Civil War, and January 6. That's "relative peace and prosperity".

...the Civil War, and January 6.