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Housing is at the root of many of the rich world’s problems (2020)

economist.com

351–360 of 817 posts

Re: Housing is at the root of many of the rich world’s problems (2020)

#351

Housing in the US has gotten to where it is due to horrible laws effectively allowing total tax avoidance for landlords. Take some investment property. You buy it at some basis price, let's say 500k. You rent it out for 15k a year. Each year you can offset your rental income against deprecation of the property and property taxes - meaning, you pay no income tax on your rental income. ~30 years later, you've deprecate…

When purchasing real-estate in a hot area, the real money comes from increasing prices. Some cities have had something like 10% - 15% annual growth, for 10 years straight. Banks are also much more forgiving when it comes to down-payment, when they know it's going to be a rental, and you already have other rentals as collateral. In essence, purchasing a rental unit with only 1%-5% down payment up-front, is kind of lik…

> Banks are also much more forgiving when it comes to down-payment, when they know it's going to be a rental, and you already have other rentals as collateral.

I don't think that's true. The interest rate on your loan will be more expensive if it's an investment property and the LTV requirements are more strict.

Re: Housing is at the root of many of the rich world’s problems (2020)

#352

Housing in the US has gotten to where it is due to horrible laws effectively allowing total tax avoidance for landlords. Take some investment property. You buy it at some basis price, let's say 500k. You rent it out for 15k a year. Each year you can offset your rental income against deprecation of the property and property taxes - meaning, you pay no income tax on your rental income. ~30 years later, you've deprecate…

The effects of lowering taxes on rental income is complicated.

If you lower the taxes on rental income, more people will buy houses (and build new ones!) to take advantage of the reduction in taxes. However, they will still have to rent the apartments/houses out at market prices. The rental price will go down because now there is a greater supply of houses, and renting out an apartment at a lower rent is equally profitable as before (since you don't have to pay as much in taxes).

The cost of purchasing a house, however will increase, because there are more landlords competing to purchase the house with you.

Overall, the real problem is zoning single family homes everywhere, and rent control that disincentivizes building new housing.

Re: Housing is at the root of many of the rich world’s problems (2020)

#353
post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a California specific phenomenon due to various caps they put at state level on the rate at which property taxes can be increased

Even in other states which lack property tax caps, the basic framework within which tax rates are set is controlled at the state level. For example, some economists have proposed replacing property taxes with land value taxes but it would be impossible for a single city to do so without enabling state legislation.

Interesting. I assumed counties/cities are relatively free to set property tax rates according to their budget, and the city needing to compete with other cities is what keeps them relatively in line.

Re: Housing is at the root of many of the rich world’s problems (2020)

#354
post #344

Housing in the US has gotten to where it is due to horrible laws effectively allowing total tax avoidance for landlords. Take some investment property. You buy it at some basis price, let's say 500k. You rent it out for 15k a year. Each year you can offset your rental income against deprecation of the property and property taxes - meaning, you pay no income tax on your rental income. ~30 years later, you've deprecate…

I think taxes stopped making sense since 1971 when the USD became a fully fiat currency. if the government can print money, what's the point of collecting money through taxes?

Progressive taxation.

Re: Housing is at the root of many of the rich world’s problems (2020)

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Q1: Yes, there is. Once a professional politician sees more activity from renters, they will include the renter's interests into their agenda Q2: Yes, obviously there is a positive correlation. This is exactly why renters need to fight: stakes are against them. Current status quo is in favor of homeowners; it will not be possible to change it while being passive. Renters and homeowners have conflict of interests, the…

You have an incredibly naive impression of representative democracy and capitalist political economy. US politicians serve the rich, not only because they are the rich but also because they need the donations to even be able to run. This isn’t a mere hiccup but rather the entire point of the design.

Yes, in my experience, the naïve interpretation is right 80% of time and it is always best to start from a naïve explanation of a process.

US politicians serve the rich only because they think that donations will help them win. Make the donations irrelevant - "rich" will loose the political power. How to make the donations irrelevant - go to vote, especially if you are poor and powerless. Convince your friends to vote. And not for a president, but for a local mayor, city council, judge etc.

Re: Housing is at the root of many of the rich world’s problems (2020)

#356

Housing in the US has gotten to where it is due to horrible laws effectively allowing total tax avoidance for landlords. Take some investment property. You buy it at some basis price, let's say 500k. You rent it out for 15k a year. Each year you can offset your rental income against deprecation of the property and property taxes - meaning, you pay no income tax on your rental income. ~30 years later, you've deprecate…

Wow, I wish. I'm speaking as someone who put all his retirement savings into index funds year after year, but then married someone whose job is related to real estate. Real estate feels more concrete and understandable to her than finance, so that's where our money goes now. It's not easy free money, and I don't know why you would think that any high-profile, low-barrier-to-entry investment would be easy free money.…

Are you spending an unreasonable amount of time managing property vs the rent you take in?

I spend a max of an hour a month on average on property management. Find good tenants (reduce the rent if you have to). On average my tenants have had 3+ year leases with minimal management.

Re: Housing is at the root of many of the rich world’s problems (2020)

#357
A couple ideas for how to fix some real estate problems:

1. A zoning rule that requires home owners to live in the owned home. This would prevent remote/foreign money from meddling with local housing in particular areas, and prevents big corps from buying up all the homes and forcing people to lease them out. Some people want to lease though, so that's why I think it's more appropriate as a zoning tool for particular areas than as a city or state-wide law. Maybe this could manifest as a leasing tax. (As an aside, in the US this wouldn't work for typical apartment buildings, however maybe we should consider apartment owning model like they have in Japan...)

2. Ban NDAs for real estate leases, period. They just allow for shenanigans like lying about how much a property was leased for in the past. NDAs are usually a cancer but I admit they can be useful in certain contexts; real estate is not a valid context for NDAs.

3. You can only deprecate the improved value, not the value of the land. "The land beneath a building does not deprecate, whereas the value of the building should." -- a good idea by huevosabio that I saw in this thread.

4. Owners pay taxes on the claimed lease value, regardless of current occupancy. This would disincentivize owners from just sitting on dozens of properties refusing to lease because nobody wants to pay their unrealistic exorbitant rates. This is a plague in New York at the moment, where all the owners are playing a game of chicken with the economy to try to artificially prop up their building valuations by pretending that the supply/demand curve doesn't exist even in the face of record breaking unoccupancy (is that a word?).

Re: Housing is at the root of many of the rich world’s problems (2020)

#358
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how do you think politicians make money? They usually own assets.

In the US some politicians make money by using their knowledge of upcoming legislation to trade stocks. https://nypost.com/2022/07/23/nancy-and-paul-pelosi-are-trad...

What kind of insider knowledge did Pelosi have that would incline her to throw money into Roblox?

Re: Housing is at the root of many of the rich world’s problems (2020)

#359

Housing in the US has gotten to where it is due to horrible laws effectively allowing total tax avoidance for landlords. Take some investment property. You buy it at some basis price, let's say 500k. You rent it out for 15k a year. Each year you can offset your rental income against deprecation of the property and property taxes - meaning, you pay no income tax on your rental income. ~30 years later, you've deprecate…

I disagree that the 1031 exchange laws are detrimental to society. In fact, I would argue that their existence boosts the rate of development and increases housing supply in the US.

Firstly, why does the government deserve to tax these transactions at all? These landlords are already taxed on their income from their jobs, pay property taxes, pay taxes on all the products they buy. The government is extracting plenty of wealth from its citizens, why on earth would we demand more of people just for being successful in real estate? Will the government put their money to better use than these people spending it themselves on products and services? I think anyone who engages with public sector projects and services knows that the government does not efficiently spend money.

Let's imagine a world where 1031 exchanges are banned. What happens? Wealthy investors no longer sell properties at the same rate. What's the point? If my apartment building is cash flowing every year, and I'm stuck paying a huge capital gain tax on the sale, I'll just hold it for life and enjoy the cash flow. The rate of real estate transactions would collapse overnight, killing all of the jobs connected to it from appraisers, to brokers, to investment firms and wealth advisors. Now, not only does the government get less tax revenue because overall real estate transactions and taxable events are diminishing, but there is less incentive to build new projects.

The appetite of 1031 exchange buyers is one of the driving factors in development of new commercial real estate projects in the market! The profit motive spurs growth. Look at the Opportunity Zone legislation of 2017, a once in a lifetime chance to defer and eliminate capital gains as long as you are investing those gain dollars into real estate development in blighted areas. This tax incentive alone has generated hundreds of thousands of new residential units on the market that would never have been built without the tax incentive. Taxing real estate more would only slow growth, if we want people to take the time, effort and risk to build more housing units in the US, we need to incentivize them with less taxes.. not more.

Re: Housing is at the root of many of the rich world’s problems (2020)

#360
I see 2 main problems with housing, possibly related to each other:

- too many unoccupied apartments or offices, and secondary residences

- cars is at the root of the decision, and this leads to people living 30+km away from where they have to go daily, which is a big environmental issue

We should transition away from individual cars to light vehicles to solve the climate crisis, and we (the government) should also manage the housing crisis to help with that

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