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I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

going-medieval.com

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Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#351

Post by LtWorf »

LtWorf wrote: post #288
tlogan wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Nordic countries become Christian just in 12th century. And it took considerably longer for actual Christian beliefs to establish themselves among the people in these regions. So all these “don’t bath” nonsense promoted by pope was ignored (like, Pope Innocent IV passed the verdict against Frederick II of being a heathen. The first accusation on his list was the King bathed daily.) In short, people did not wanted…

Do you have a source for this? I could find nothing written in Italian about this.

If no source comes I'll just think it was a rumor spread by protestants to show people they should be protestants.

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#352

Post by kumarvvr »

msravi wrote: post #347
unmole wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, revisionist nonsense. Karna, one the greatest warriors of his time is not treated as a Kshatriya because of his birth. Shambuka, a Shudra is executed for daring to perform tapas. So much for the Varna is not hereditary theory. The Arthashastra makes it clear that privileges of being a Brahmin were accrued by birth. The Manusmriti describes the caste of the offspring based on the permutations of the parents cas…

You should read the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute's (BORI) Critical Edition of the Mahabharata - which is the definitive edition, rather than relying on unsubstantiated translations. When Kripacharya asks for Karna's royal lineage (not caste) to let him take part in the competition, this is what Duryodhana says: Duryodhana said, “O preceptor! It is stated in the sacred texts that there are three ways to beco…

A small clarification.

Nowhere in the Ramayana does it say that Shabari offered half eaten fruits to Rama. Because that is not good conduct. These are stories that evolved from poetry based on Ramayana.

However, it is pertinent to note that Rama is a Kshatriya and Shabari was the disciple of Matanga Muni and Rama respected her due to her devotion and service to Matanga muni, and not for her caste or lineage.

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#353

Post by eru »

hnfong wrote: post #298
eru wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [...] has been culturally unified since time immemorial. Could you be a bit more concrete?

Not the GP but I'll be more concrete in the other direction. The Roman Empire is located in Europe, is more recent than "time immemorial", and I'll claim that they didn't regard the various barbarians in Europe outside its sphere of influence as culturally unified with them.

It depends a bit on what we mean by 'time immemorial'. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_immemorial for some possibilities.

In a legal context, 'time immemorial' is often much, much more recent than the Roman Empire, even the Eastern part.

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#354

Post by zigzag312 »

tlogan wrote: post #294
happyopossum wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Addressed in the article - the church’s opposition to bathing came much later than the medieval period according to the author.

Later? Pope Gregory I declared baths should be only used to cure the sick. Of couse, we read his words different today (like he allowed it) but bathing was considered sinful. There was a belief that bathing invited demonic possession and that the dirt, sweqt, etc. actually repelled demonic forces. In my part of the world, there are still stories how church was telling people that you should take a bath only on Đurđev…

Can you provide source? I find such claims fascinating, so I did a quick google search, but what I found doesn't support your statements.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene_in_Christianity:

  Early Christian clergy condemned the practice of mixed bathing as practiced by the Romans ...

  The Church also built public bathing facilities that were separate for both sexes near monasteries and pilgrimage sites ...

  ... baths were normally considered therapeutic until the days of Gregory the Great, who understood virtuous bathing to be bathing "on account of the needs of body" ...
> You do know that the devil is lurking from the water don’t you? I guess folk tales cannot be used as proof since they are no written records.

As far as I know, these tales were meant for children to stay away from bodies of water to prevent drowning of kids.

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#355

Post by unmole »

msravi wrote: post #347
unmole wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, revisionist nonsense. Karna, one the greatest warriors of his time is not treated as a Kshatriya because of his birth. Shambuka, a Shudra is executed for daring to perform tapas. So much for the Varna is not hereditary theory. The Arthashastra makes it clear that privileges of being a Brahmin were accrued by birth. The Manusmriti describes the caste of the offspring based on the permutations of the parents cas…

You should read the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute's (BORI) Critical Edition of the Mahabharata - which is the definitive edition, rather than relying on unsubstantiated translations. When Kripacharya asks for Karna's royal lineage (not caste) to let him take part in the competition, this is what Duryodhana says: Duryodhana said, “O preceptor! It is stated in the sacred texts that there are three ways to beco…

What are you even on about? Why bring a digression about royality when the comment was about varna being heridetary? Despite being the perfect embodiment of Kshatriya dharma, Karna is referred to as a sutaputra and a suta throughout the text. Quoting from the Bibek Debroy translation of the BORI edition you hold in such high regard:

"Rama angrily spoke these words to Karna. ‘O foolish one! No one who has been born as a brahmana can endure such great suffering. Your patience is like that of a kshatriya. I wish to hear the truth.’ Karna was frightened of being cursed. He sought his favours and said, ‘O Bhargava! Know me to be between a brahmana and a kshatriya, born as a suta."

> You should read the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute's (BORI) Critical Edition of the Mahabharata - which is the definitive edition

Please read the original Sanskrit or an edition that isn't watered down by wishy washy translation. For instance, in Sanskrit, the charactersitics of each varna are described as 'स्वभावजम्'. Bibek Debroy translates it to nature, focussing on the 'स्वभाव' and entirelly omitting the 'जम्' part. Dr. Sarvapalli Radhakrishnan preserves the full implications of the term and translates it as born of their nature.

> Shabari, from whom Rama accepted half-eaten berries

And which critical edition of the Ramayana did you read that story in? The irony of reaching for apocrypha to argue against perceived revisionism!

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#356

Post by southerntofu »

greenpeas wrote: post #236
southerntofu wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you reach this conclusion? I know many people in France who have difficulty feeding themselves / their family, yet depending on the region it may or may not be part of local culture to feed other people outside your home. In fact, it's definitely not local culture in any big city i've visited, and on the countryside it varies not by region but from one village to the next. From what i could see it it's really…

If food was plentiful and everyone had access to food, sharing food would not be a virtue. It's only a virtue if it's somewhat difficult for the person sharing (it means they are sacrificing something to help others) and at the same time is valuable to the receiver (the receiver really needs the food).

That makes sense, thanks!

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#357

Post by dang »

kumarvvr wrote: post #124
origin_path wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But surely by that definition Europe was also a unified entity in the medieval period.

Quoted post unavailable.

Please stop posting flamewar comments to HN, including religious and nationalistic comments. You've been doing it repeatedly, unfortunately, and we ban that sort of account.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#358

Post by dang »

ahtihn wrote: post #194
kumarvvr wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

> Christianity is so young, it hasn't had the time to develop into a serious religion. This is complete nonsense.

Please don't respond to a bad comment by breaking the site guidelines yourself. That only makes things worse.

"Don't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them instead."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#359

Post by kzrdude »

Tagbert wrote: post #320
mongol wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes could be, it is obvious they are related, I don't know if laugardagr is the original or if they have common roots.

laugardagr is the Old Norse word. Swedish developed from Old Norse (as did Norwegian and Danish). The Swedish lördag is derived from laugardagr. The “laug” portion comes from Old High German “louga”, from PIE root leue- "to wash." The “dagr” portion comes from the PIE root agh- "a day" with an initial “d” added as part of Old High German. OHG is the ancestor of Old Norse. This is from Etymonline - a great resource fo…

I think mongol is right to be careful. There wasn't one coherent old Norse, it had east-west variation even then for example.

But it should give the broad strokes, just like talking about PIE is certainly a broad stroke.

Re: I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

#360

Post by valtism »

danmaz74 wrote: post #163
kumarvvr wrote: post #12

Its funny that western history distorts the history of the rest of the world. I hear western kids saying no one used to bathe in the ancient times. As an Indian, it was practically mandatory for each and every individual to take a bath at-least two times a day. Additionally the following customs were very prevalent till recent times. 1. Washing legs after coming home from outside. 2. Washing hands, face and legs befo…

> I hear western kids saying no one used to bathe in the ancient times. Which western kids did you hear from? Every western kid I know studied that in Roman times bathing was a very important activity; as a matter of fact there were very advanced public baths, thermae (which included "sauna" with hot and cold water) in every city. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermae

In my experience, a lot of western kids I know believe that bathing was almost non-existent in medieval times.
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