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Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

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Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#351

Post by 1-6 »

nomel wrote: post #329
sequoia wrote: post #325

Seems like they're just following local import/trade rules? I think the rule is bad but presumably plenty of local trade rules are stupid. One doesn't get to pick and choose which to follow. I guess the implication is that going along with China's stance on Taiwan is "going to far" ethically and Apple should refuse, but I can't quite see this.

> Taiwan is "going to far" ethically and Apple should refuse, but I can't quite see this. And we won't see it from any big name company, since nearly everything is manufactured, in part or whole, in China.

Moreover it’s about sales in China. If Apple refuses to follow China’s rules, they’ll suffer consequences in sales.

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#352

Post by drc500free »

josephcsible wrote: post #106
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, and again, I'm expecting you to understand that they are making this choice because they don't want to pay the consequences of it. And that "cannot" is a short way to state that. Now, from reading your comments, I'm going to assume you are in good faith, and you simply can't see what consequences they can face. Although we can't know for sure such things without being an expert in middle-east politics, one ca…

> they are making this choice because they don't way to pay the consequences of it. And that "cannot" is a short way to state that. I don't think that's a short way of saying the same thing though, for the kind of consequences you mean at least. Imagine if I were a vegan for ethical reasons. It'd be fine for me to say "I don't eat meat", but a lie to say "I can't eat meat", since I'd be perfectly capable of doing so,…

Someone with alpha-gal can absolutely eat meat. Nothing is stopping them from chewing and swallowing meat.

It would be a terrible idea, with drastic consequences. But they absolutely can.

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#353

Post by kingaillas »

Apocryphon wrote: post #215
ericmay wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can enact regulation (which takes time, and which I support) and also buy things that aren't made in China right now. This same thing applies to environmental considerations as well. You don't need to wait for the government to ban plastic bags for you to stop using them. Both can happen together.

Such regulation doesn't just take time, it's basically politically unfeasible given how both entrenched interests (businesses) and the individual voter are incentivized towards cost-savings. It's essentially like calling for raising taxes- not literally impossible, but virtually so. You're setting up an ethical dilemma that is always going to default to one direction, and castigating those who don't go the impossible…

But what to do or how to fix it?

All I see is the cognitive dissonance of worshipping the free market, except in this case where corporate America sold the future of US away in exchange for higher profit margins today.

Plus the cognitive dissonance of government action being unpalatable yet also required, since maximum profit-seekers (the highest motive possible in the system we have set up) aren't incentivized to do anything else.

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#354

Post by leereeves »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #349
leereeves wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple would get easily undercut by competitors with lower prices? Many have tried. But yes, that could happen to other companies, which shows that consumers share responsibility for ignoring the labor and environmental conditions.

Consumers don't have any transparency into labor or environmental conditions. We can't even see a bill of materials for our products much less information on the labor or environmental conditions. The problem is systemic--the rules incentivize bad outcomes; litigating blame is pointless and distracting: fix the rules and move on.

That is not true. We all know China has poor environmental protections and low wages, and yet we choose to buy products made in China.

And the consumers who don't care are also voters who don't care, so the rules won't be fixed.

But a few powerful people could create huge changes all on their own. Holding them responsible is not pointless, it's our best hope for change.

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#355

Post by amelius »

eevilspock wrote: post #350
amelius wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they have to lie in order to comply. It's not just about following stupid rules.

Lie? If it's a lie, then it's a lie promoted by the Taiwan government itself, on its official government website and even in its constitution. Taiwan, like mainland China, even still claims Tibet as its territory. They do mainland China one better, they claim Mongolia as well. See supporting references in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32358560

Yes, it's a lie as CCP has had no meaningful governmental role in Taiwan so far.

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#356

Post by tuxoko »

trasz wrote: post #303
przemub wrote: post #17

Trade is really a matter for the government, and the US (sadly) adheres to the One China Policy. This just reflects the official policy, and having the companies pick this fight instead of the country is hypocritical.

>US (sadly) adheres to the One China Policy How terrible of them to adhere to the policy Taiwanese themselves prefer! EDIT: To clarify, from what I remember the public opinion on Taiwan independence has been steadily shifting and now it’s the majority’s preference compared to becoming another province of China. At the same time the vast majority of Taiwanese prefer the option “let’s keep things as they are now”, if t…

First, US's One China policy is US's policy. It makes no sense for Taiwanese to adheres to a US's policy.

Second, US's One China policy is only a word play. It acknowledges China's position regarding Taiwan but doesn't actually agree or disagree to it. That's why it still provide defense for Taiwan.

Third, your comment about public opinion is a complete nonsense. Taiwan is a democratic nation. If the majority prefers being a province of China, it would have already voted to do so. And the only reason people choose to "keep things as they are now" is to avoid provoking a war with China.

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#357

Post by avh02 »

josephcsible wrote: post #49
kps wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Used to. Israel and UAE normalized relations in 2020 and signed a free trade deal this spring.

Sure. My point is just that the UAE could have done that whenever they wanted; nobody was ever forcing them to not trade with Israel.

I'm not sure that, at least historically, that would be looked upon amicably by their neighbouring countries or populations. That has changed over time though which has allowed this to happen.

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#358

Post by Lio »

Pulcinella wrote: post #5
earthboundkid wrote: post #3

Why is this interesting? Taiwan has to compete in the Olympics as Chinese Taipei or whatever. Yeah, any place that China can influence, it makes Taiwan call itself China.

Taiwan calls itself China. The official name is literally the Republic of China. Both China and Taiwan agree that there is just one China, but disagree about what formal unification would or should look like. Edit: The USA also agrees that there is one China, at least officially, though it’s not like the US doesn’t like to change its mind frequently. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Communiqué

As I understand it the PRC are also objecting to labelling that says "Republic of China" too, not just Taiwan.

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#359

Post by CogitoCogito »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #312
CogitoCogito wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why you're over-complicating this. The body that decided on that terminology didn't even invite Taiwan to participate. The terminology was chosen at the behest of China. That body was obviously not neutral.

It just doesn't seem useful to adopt a concept of "neutrality" so strong that no international organization meets it.

Once again you're over-complicated this. The organization could have invited Taiwan to participate and asked them what they'd like to be called. That would certainly satisfy those questioning the organization's neutrality.

Re: Apple warns suppliers to follow China rules on 'Taiwan' labeling

#360

Post by spookie »

eevilspock wrote: post #350
amelius wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they have to lie in order to comply. It's not just about following stupid rules.

Lie? If it's a lie, then it's a lie promoted by the Taiwan government itself, on its official government website and even in its constitution. Taiwan, like mainland China, even still claims Tibet as its territory. They do mainland China one better, they claim Mongolia as well. See supporting references in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32358560

A link [1] referenced in your supporting evidence suggests it is but a remnant of the Chinese Civil War. But even then, Taiwan's constitution does state that a vote may be held in order to change such territorial claims. This only made it in the 7th revision, in 2004 [2].

I would also like to make it clear that mainland China is the only one that has ever put these claims (except for Mongolia) into practice.

[1] https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2021/05... [2] https://english.president.gov.tw/Page/93

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