Live data from Hacker News

Part of my code makes Copilot crash

github.com

351–360 of 411 posts

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#351
post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what if Microsoft is such an activist? Implying from their tool, which conforms to this ideology.

> So what if Microsoft is such an activist? Then Microsoft should very clearly state this so that customers who don't like this ideology know that they are not desired, and can get away from Microsoft products as far as possible for them.

Here you go!

https://www.microsoft.com/design/inclusive/

Also check out their AI design related doc, which specifically mentions how they try to avoid association bias, for example, those related to gender:

https://www.microsoft.com/design/assets/inclusive/InclusiveD...

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#352
post #327
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In terms of how much difference it makes to someone going to dinner with them in a casual social context? Yes, it probably is. Anyone can date whomever they want based on whatever criteria they want. But if someone wants to be called "he" despite not being born with a penis-- what's the big deal? Are you being harmed so much by complying? > > if they don't like us referring to their race or features in a certain wa…

Quoted post unavailable.

> Are you harmed so much by saying there are five lights when there are four?

Definitions and language change. I know of people who get deeply offended when "decimated" is used to not strictly mean exactly a 10% reduction, despite language not meaning quite that forever. "He" meaning "chooses to present as male and/or would really like to be referred to in ways that are associated with maleness" rather than "was born with a penis" seems OK.

Insisting on labelling someone based on your historical idea of language and what you think they should be called is not really a great way to choose to do things. I mean, you can insist on calling someone the N-word because that's "just calling a spade a spade", but...

> A mention of gender in code is probably not talking about the author's gender.

It's probably talking about a user's or a customer's gender. e.g. eventually getting in someone's face with it.

> for assuming that the same dynamics don't apply in other areas. Virtually everything that we're able to objectively measure, we find significant sex differences.

I struggle to respond to this one. I mean-- really, really seriously-- "so what?" I mean, it seems that you're upset that stereotypes might not work as well.

Basically every simple characteristic A we measure about humans is correlated with many different complex outcomes B with terrific variation.

Yes, people who present with female characteristics at birth are shorter than me on average, but not all. Most are worse at basketball than the average man, but not all. There are some differences in spatial tasks on average than men, but some outperform most men. Most show lower measures of aggression than men, but... Etc.

I mean, do you need to get gender of birth correct- or race, or natural hair color, or nation of upbringing, etc, so you can make judgments based on stereotypes better (which may be real biological correlates)? I think we should always be acting based on the actual individual ahead of us based on the actual measure in question, rather than some proxy.

And even if you really, really want stereotypes to work-- people born male who choose to present as female vary on a whole lot of measures, on average, from the overall male average. And sex hormones change a number of these measures, both immediately and with sustained usage. So, the measure is pretty broken in the first place, because of terrific individual variation and being affected by the gender transition process.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since when have LGBTQ people been seen as normal and like everyone else? We've only had marriage for less than a decade and scotus could take that away; in many states it's still illegal i believe some constitutionally. Not even going to try and touch on what most in here are up in arms about (gender, trans rights, race). What children at age 6 are getting hormone blockers/therapy? Just a quick search shows that stan…

This whole comment section is pretty frustrating. I don't even live in America and I'm scared. An enormous wave of hate is starting to show recently - even in the comparatively few places where queer people are relatively ok. I still don't get to marry in my country - only civil unions, and even that was hard fought. No adoption, no real protection from hate crime. Elections are happening soon, and the projection of…

> This whole comment section is pretty frustrating.

I agree. The amount of misinformation and/or active disinformation in this comment section is horrifying and disheartening.

> My trans brothers and sisters have it way, way worse - especially when surgery and/or hormones are not nearly as easy to come by as these people on the internet would like to think.

It really is wild to me how many people think, like, school nurses are handing out hormone medication like candy or something, or you can just go get them OTC at the corner drug store. My kid's school nurse won't even give her Tylenol without calling me, these people really think they're secretly sending kids home with hormone medication?

It is not and easy or fast process. Often, in the case of gender questioning youth, puberty blockers are used to buy time for them while they assess their feelings and the process plays out, because they are entirely reversible - just stop taking them. The whole initial transition process can often take a year or more from first appointment to hormone therapy starting and there are lots of gatekeepers along the way to safeguard you.

In most places if you are under 18 you have to be under the care of an LGBT-affirming physician (which can be very hard to find, even in cities, and often have months of wait time), have had at least some therapy under your belt, and an official gender dysphoria diagnosis to get hormone treatment started.

Surgical approaches are very rarely considered for young people. Like I am sure there have been some, I can't fully rule it out, but I run in LGBT+ circles a lot and have for decades, and I personally have not met a single person who had any kind of gender-affirming surgery done before 18. Most have them done in their 20s or 30s if they can afford it. The wait times can stretch into years, and the surgeries themselves are often considered cosmetic procedures and are often not covered the same as a medically-required surgery. Even among adult trans people, surgeries are often considered a far off goal that many never be reached, and quite a few will find that they don't want or need it once other transitioning processes have happened and they no longer feel crippling levels of dysphoria.

And all of that assumes you have a supportive parent or guarding and, as one stroll through various transgender hangouts on the web will tell you, that is not as common as one would hope. All it takes is one parent to say "no" and you're not doing anything until you're an adult. Once you are 18 things are a bit more open and you have more options to speed the process up, but it is hard being a transgender youth.

There are a lot of misconceptions in these comments about what being transgender is, what the process for getting HRT is, and all of the various steps needed to reach each person's individual goals. And all of this is easily researchable using Google in 10 minutes, it just takes an open mind and a willingness to see others' viewpoints. It's extremely frustrating.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#354
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But it's not the right of the damn language parser programmer. This isn't a language parser. This is a tool that suggests implementations of small portions of code. If the training data is out of date, it's quite reasonable for people employing that model to decide it shouldn't return results based on the out-of-date training data. Even about completely different things. If the output is C code containing gets(), m…

>If the training data is out of date, it's quite reasonable for people employing that model to decide it shouldn't return results based on the out-of-date training data. It's not "out-of-date". That's just the kind of pilpul semantic framing that these activists engage in since "out-of-date" implies "bad". The data is just not in line with their artificially made-up ideology. A demand which one, even as the best "all…

All social conventions are artificially made-up ideology.

If you insist on calling a black person a "negro", despite its change in connotation over time, you are not being very nice.

If you train an AI, or a person, using old books to call someone a "negro", you're condoning and continuing offensive behavior.

Ditto, here.

> since the grievance grifting relies on always coming up with new issues,

We pretty clearly, culturally, have a whole lot of issues. Becoming more nuanced in how we label them makes sense. And, of course, language changes rapidly.

It especially changes rapidly when we're talking about marginalized groups. Pejoration is a process by which a word associated with marginalized groups become offensive over time. "Idiot", "moron", "retard" were all originally clinical and relatively non-offensive words, but society as a whole ended up changing them to include a value judgment. The euphemism treadmill is annoying, but insisting on continuing to call someone something that has developed a negative value judgment is not really good, either.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#355
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are not enough people in that job that are not white and male. Have you looked at the actual demographics of medical doctors in the US? 54% are women, and 35% are nonwhite. But when we have media depictions of doctors, I agree they tend to be white and male. So, what should DALL-E conform to? Should it conform to A) our actual present society, B) the biased original dataset (which leans both towards the past…

>54% are women, and 35% are nonwhite. But when we have media depictions of doctors, I agree they tend to be white and male What's the issue? I used to watch a lot of medical dramas on TV and in my opinion the black rockstar MDs are way overrepresented in comparison to their real-life numbers: '5.0%' in 2018 in the US[1] in real-life vs. '19.4%'[2] on TV [1] https://www.aamc.org/data-reports/workforce/interactive-data…

> What's the issue? I used to watch a lot of medical dramas on TV and in my opinion the black rockstar MDs are way overrepresented in comparison to their real-life numbers:

Well, this clearly isn't the case in the DALL-E training dataset, because "medical doctor" overwhelmingly yields white dudes-- even after OpenAI's effort at removing bias.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never had a reason to call people ugly behind their backs. Calling Romani Romani not a word they don't like isn't dishonest, strange, or rude. I don't know anything about the birth genitals of most people I dine with.

> I don't know anything about the birth genitals of most people I dine with. Unless you mostly participate in statistically unusual social circles, that's plain incorrect. The truth is that you can't know anything about their birth genitals with certainty . However, unless you have some unusual condition that prevents you from perceiving sex-associated characteristics, then if somebody looks male/female to you, you k…

A frat buddy of mine was a trans man. I would have never known if old fart assholes hadn't pitched a fit about him being elected our chapter president.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#357
post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Nobody can or should stop you from thinking about reality with the model of your choice. While I agree with you, that is very much the game that is being played here. We have competing world views and one way to help a world view dominate is to play a linguistic war. That was the point of Newspeak in 1984 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak ). If you control the language such that competing ideas are instantly…

The whole point of (post-)structuralist philosophy, which informs the left-wing view on this, is that all language is already newspeak. (And since it follows that you can't choose not to play, you may as well play to win.) > Western society was starting to get to the point where it taboos were being shed and ideas could win based on their merit. Name a year that things were actually better. (In the 40's, before the c…

No post body was provided.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

> such a group is a very small minority They got "master" changed to "main" in Github.

Also got a code of conduct popularized that explicitly seeks to moderate behaviour on unrelated platforms.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hahaha some of those banned words are very mild. Wuzzocks, numbnuts, and rodgering?

It's a hell of a list. Everything from seriously offensive slurs which I won't repeat here, to phrases which are much sillier than offensive like "banana bender" or "bearded clam", to words that are simply descriptive like "pornographic", "immigrant", or "race". (Because I had to look it up too: "banana bender" is a humorous term for an inhabitant of Queensland, Australia. It doesn't appear to be considered offensive…

Banana bender was definitely something else in my mind! But yes they also have some very graphic slurs there.
Post reply on HN