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In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

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Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#351
post #266
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think that telling people what to wear removes power from them. Indeed, it does remove power from them. It is also something which every country, every culture, and every religion has in common. They all put in rules about what people are allowed and not allowed to wear. The support for those are also quite high when people are forced to think about them, but since they are such an omnipresence, it like talking t…

The ubiquity and normalization of dress codes doesn't mean that they are fair or just. There is both a long history and plenty of contemporary controversy over very unfair dress codes. When a more powerful group imposes a dress code on a less powerful group, it absolutely behooves us to second guess ourselves. > people should have an inalienable-right to decide from themselves what to wear It seems pretty evident tha…

What is a fair or unfair dress code is determine by culture, religion and governments, which simply create a circle. The culture, religion and political majority determine what dress code is used, and the same one determine if it is fair. Unless the law, culture or religion is lagging behind political majority it will always be a minority that will view a dress code as being unfair.

Similar is the specific contexts which such rules may be broken. Nudists are generally only permitted in very narrow defined and small nudist zones, like say a specific beach behind a hill and behind a forest on the outskirts of a city. If the same would be applied to Hijab so that it would only be allowed in small and special Hijab zones located out of sight of everyone in the furthest located place, would it feel fair or unfair?

We have situation like, should a male buss driver be allowed to wear shorts, or is it fair that the company dress code say that men should were suits and women skirts regardless of hot it is?

I know a person who had to quite his job because wearing socks hurt his feet so much and the dress code strictly required socks. Fair? Unfair?

Some people has been fired because they refused to remove jewelry where the dress code forbid it. Those jewelry was religious in nature and such the wearer felt they deserved an exception. Fair or unfair?

The list goes on and on. Depending on a person cultural, religious and political views people will think some of those are fair and others not. Very few find all of them unfair and want to give people the right to determine that themselves, which is why finding such person is such a rare event for me. Personally I think people should have the right to wear or not wear what ever they want as long it doesn't cause physical harm to an other person, but that is me.

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#352
post #307
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deeply rooted institutional and cultural discrimination can only exist if discriminating behavior is acceptable when it done against the right target. Changing which demographic is permitted to discriminate (and hate) against only changes the smallest amount of variable, which is the opposite strategy of going deeper in the effort to eliminate discrimination. It is very similar to violence. People abhor violence when…

To continue the steel manning, here's a thought experiment: What if a large percentage of people decided to exclude you from everything for some arbitrary reason. Just you. People know who you are and pass you up for jobs, promotions, home loans, value your contributions less, etc. The reasons don't make sense. They're impervious to argument. In some cases people deny that they're doing it, or seem genuinely unaware,…

First off, I would define that as violence if it came to an extreme. Imprisoning people is to exclude people from everything, including space to move around. Society in general define that as violence. So following this thought experiment we must then enter the philosophical discussion to define what violence is.

Excluding people from everything in modern society causes harm. Starvation, exposure to the environment, psychological harm, atrophy of muscle and body. Excluding people from health care lead to further harm and eventually death. Taken to the extreme and we got murder.

If a majority of people voted to allow murder and violence then the most likely outcome is a civil war, but if in this thought experiment we are talking about only allowing murder and violence towards a single person, the best strategy would be to flee and seek asylum.

If we however limit this thought experiment to an degree which isn't murder and violence, and within the already set limits that government laws has specified (such as the European law of human rights), then if a large percentage of people decided to exclude me from a limited number of things, the best approach would be to political active to make the law even better while at the same time personally avoiding those people. No violence required. Mahatma Gandhi and nonviolent resistance is a good model when laws are unjust and need changing.

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any proof of that being the case? If the Chinese son makes it clear to the admission team about the hardships he overcame, surely that would be to his advantage. Completely anecdotally, but I had two Asian colleagues from poor households. One got a full ride to Harvard and the other to MIT. Whereas, the smartest person I've ever personally known was accepted to Harvard but not given any financial aid. He…

You're advocating an arbitrary system over a rules system. Who decides whether the sob story the janitor's son tells is sufficient? Is having two drug-addled parents better than one? In a rules based system, you get in or don't based on your qualifications and prerequisites. You can predict how the system will act in restricting you. It is fairer . In a system where everyone must be judged, it leads to exercises in c…

I think this was excellently reasoned. Wish there was something I could add, but it’s all there.

This has been my argument against “post modernism” and “my truth” nonsense. You can’t have a legal or social system that is selectively applied because of a story or your feelings.

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#354
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not Asians primarily. They are discriminated against more stiffly, but are far outnumbered in the US by Whites, who also get the thumb placed on the wrong pan of the scale. The focus on Asians is because of a doctrine that discriminating against Whites is very good and correct, because they deserve it.

The focus on Asians is because the group that brought this group is mostly Asian-American. And that is true because, as you admit, Asians are being discriminated against more stiffly. Now it is necessarily true that if we try to discriminate in favor of some group (eg blacks), we must necessarily give them an advantage over another group (eg whites). But the motivation there is arguably to help the historically disad…

"the motivation there is arguably to help the historically disadvantaged, and not specifically to hurt whites."

Although this is what they claim, it's hard to believe sometimes. Look at the meltdown that accompanied some smart alecs putting up posters that said nothing beyond "It's OK to be white". Wokesters went mad and started tearing them down anywhere the posters were found, implying that in their mind it is actually very much not OK to be white.

Of course, the problem here is that the woke aren't actually using race words to mean the actual skin color. It's all coded speech to hide the true target of their hatred - anyone who isn't as far left as they are. That's why they go nuts when they encounter black conservatives, or why you see white people are perfectly OK criticizing things like "whiteness". They aren't engaging in self criticism there, they've just established a convention amongst their community that "white" is coded speech for conservatives.

Scott Alexander has a great essay that examines this in depth:

https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anythin...

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#355
post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe there are any situations that are equal, except perhaps twins. No other situation can have "all else equal". This may be the crux of our disagreement. Black people may have worse outcomes as a whole, but an individual black person may not be worse off. You cannot assume an individual is identical to the group. Black people commit more crimes. Does that mean if you see a black person you can assume the…

You're mixing correct things (individual outcomes aren't representative of a group) with incorrect things (therefore we can say nothing about average outcomes for a group).

I am not saying we cannot say anything about group averages. I am saying if you take a random black person you cannot determine if they are well off or not based on race alone. You can say they are more likely to be worse off than if you took a random white person.

I am fundamentally opposed to giving benefits to people just because they are in a group that typically does worse.

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#356
In an equally balanced society, one would expect college admissions to largely reflect the makeup of that society. By the numbers, datausa.io says Yale is 43.6% "white", 5.67% "black". 13.7% "Asian". US population appears to be 59.63% "White alone, not hispanic or latino", according to census.gov. 13.6% "black" and 6.1% "asian". Datausa doesn't specify "non-resident Alien" by race, which makes up the missing 23.7%.

So whatever the policy does, the outcome is actually heavily weighted in favor of Asians vs. the share of the general population. Now, why is that? I would suspect a large share of second-generation immigrants in the pool (many immigrants I know push their kids much harder than average at academics), but I don't really know. Both "white" and "black" are underrepresented at Yale, but it looks like that is largely because of the non-resident students (who probably pay full tuition, helping to subsidize everyone else, if it's like the state school I attended).

I find it odd all the accounts suddenly interested in the outcomes for minority share races, but only for ones that are actually over represented (and therefore more likely to get into Yale than average, by the numbers).

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#357
post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, you're just arguing at strawmen of your own creation. A hijab is a religious garment. The confederate flag is a symbol of treason and slavery. Liberals leave it up to the individual to practice their own faith as they wish, so it's not frowned upon any more than a rosary is.

So, if the effective slavery of women is part of a religion, it is ok?

A hijab is not "effective slavery" of women. It is a religious garment that a woman can choose to wear, in America at least.

Unless you're also now telling the Amish and Orthodox Jewish communities how they have to dress? While we're at it, Mormons also have religious dress codes for women. And Hindus.

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what’s missing from your steelman is why returning to racial discrimination will solve the problems of past racial discrimination — rather than making them worse, by teaching a whole new generation to be racists.

Forget making it worse as the primary concern. I am concerned about fascism emerging as a backlash to anti-White discrimination. People are pissed that their society has turned against them and will abandon democracy to fix the situation.

But people love it when the other side gets “pissed”, even if it’s mostly in their imagination. Social media is almost full of schadenfreude, with no system in place to dampen it. On the contrary, any attempts at understanding the other side is called “defending them” or “weakness”.

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had another response to a now-deleted reply, but I'll put it here. Ultimately, there are policies and practices in place that try to mitigate documented structural disadvantages for underrepresented groups using a counterweight of procedural advantage . There is a debate to be had here (though I won't have it online), but the reality is true fairness and justice cannot occur without an intentional efforts to redres…

Independent of supporting justification, I think that denying the concept of procedural disadvantage while proposing procedural advantage is also dishonest semantics. In a zero-sum competition like hiring or admission, adjusting the criteria to give advantage to one is identical to giving a disadvantage to the other. Any denial of this fact taints the credibility of the speaker. I fully agree that certain individuals…

> Independent of supporting justification, I think that denying the concept of procedural disadvantage while proposing procedural advantage is also dishonest semantics.

I think this is a semantic distinction of your own making. I don't deny either exist, phrase it how you want. I said "procedural advantage", you can say "procedural disadvantage" if you must. It's "deserve" and "punishment" I have a problem with.

> Independent of supporting justification, I think that denying the concept of procedural disadvantage while proposing procedural advantage is also dishonest semantics.

Agree. And I believe we owe it to marginalized groups to put our hand on the scale. How hard we press I believe can and should be debated.

I generally agree with the rest of your statement. There is no way to have a perfect system, but that acknowledgement is usually used to justify doing nothing vs. doing something and thus reinforcing (and potentially worsening) the disparities.

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#360
post #351
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ubiquity and normalization of dress codes doesn't mean that they are fair or just. There is both a long history and plenty of contemporary controversy over very unfair dress codes. When a more powerful group imposes a dress code on a less powerful group, it absolutely behooves us to second guess ourselves. > people should have an inalienable-right to decide from themselves what to wear It seems pretty evident tha…

What is a fair or unfair dress code is determine by culture, religion and governments, which simply create a circle. The culture, religion and political majority determine what dress code is used, and the same one determine if it is fair. Unless the law, culture or religion is lagging behind political majority it will always be a minority that will view a dress code as being unfair. Similar is the specific contexts w…

> What is a fair or unfair dress code is determine by culture, religion and governments, which simply create a circle.

This is BS relativism and you seem to be attempting to dismiss any culpability for cultures that impose unfair dress codes that primarily impact those who aren't making the dress codes and are less power or out groups.

> Nudists are generally only permitted in very narrow defined and small nudist zones, like say a specific beach behind a hill and behind a forest on the outskirts of a city. If the same would be applied to Hijab so that it would only be allowed in small and special Hijab zones located out of sight of everyone in the furthest located place, would it feel fair or unfair?

I think nudist are often treated unfairly, but there are different degrees to that unfairness in different areas. Other there are still default nudist spots in areas where nudism is legal since there are also community aspects.

I think allowing hijabs in some areas only or banning them in some areas only is less unfair than a blanket ban, but is still unfair unless there are legitimate safety concerns and the laws cover the entire class of headwear.

I would say that laws against nudism seem less targeted at a low power out group than laws against hijabs so seem like a greater abuse of power.

> We have situation like, should a male buss driver be allowed to wear shorts, or is it fair that the company dress code say that men should were suits and women skirts regardless of hot it is?

I think the company should be legally required to allow/offer uniforms that work in the environmental conditions their employees face. I don't think gender based clothing restrictions are ever fair.

> I know a person who had to quite his job because wearing socks hurt his feet so much and the dress code strictly required socks.

Unfair, unless there are safety concerns.

> Some people has been fired because they refused to remove jewelry where the dress code forbid it. Those jewelry was religious in nature and such the wearer felt they deserved an exception.

Unfair unless the rule was motivated by safety.

> Personally I think people should have the right to wear or not wear what ever they want as long it doesn't cause physical harm to an other person, but that is me.

I think there are other legitimate reasons to impose dress codes (safety, reputation, etc.) but what those codes are, how they are targeted and how they impact those effected all matter when it comes to justifying those codes.

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