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The Case for C# and .NET

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Re: The Case for C# and .NET

#351

Post by pjmlp »

throw868788 wrote: post #339
pjmlp wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try to do a GUI or EF data model design in Ionide, hot code reload while changing a GUI design, or using annotations from code generators.

My view: F#, or to be honest a cross-platform IDE like VS Code isn't probably appropriate for many of these apps or rather the dev workflow that Microsoft promote in those frameworks feels like old .NET to me. The frameworks themselves weren't designed for a minimal IDE, and language first development initially often assuming dev is in full Visual Studio with GUI XAML editors, EF designers, etc. To be bluntly honest…

Languages alone are worthless what matters is the whole development experience.

When F# came out in 2010, it appeared it would be made to share the podium with C#, VB and C++/CLI (even that black swan has better tooling on VS).

Instead what we have witness is that management doesn't really know where to F#, and naturally they cannot take it from the box.

More recently they are positioning to go against Python in data science, when .NET lacks the library ecosystem (ML.NET is still half way there and favours C# anyway), and the Microsoft was able to convince Guido come out of his early requirement with the purpose to improve CPython's performance on the top of the already existing ecosystem.

Meanwhile Intel and NVidia are also on the race to improve Python for GPU compute.

So in the end that leaves F# as a nicer ML derived language that happens to have access to the .NET libraries, with a community that kind of re-invents what .NET already offers, and a master that to this way is wondering what to do with it, other than a laboratory for C# features.

Re: The Case for C# and .NET

#352

Post by bayindirh »

jbluepolarbear wrote: post #346
bayindirh wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

.NET core can run on any platform it wants, but as long as it's from Microsoft, the company as we know it, I won't even write "Hello, World!" with it. A language can't be the fastest at everything in today's mature language ecosystem. OTOH, Debian's "Programming Language Games" benchmarks shows it's on par with Java (which is not slow in any means), and not as fast as you claim [0]. In the page I shared, some C# benc…

I only looked at the binary example and it’s some of the worst C# code I’ve ever seen. It’s synchronizing every task in a loop instead of waiting for the tasks to complete like the Java example. It’s returning a result instead of using an array like the Java example. The 2 examples are not equivalent.

I know no C#, but you can contribute a better one if you prefer. Some of the languages have multiple implementations in the games and their performance vary a lot.

Re: The Case for C# and .NET

#353

Post by electric_dreams »

chasd00 wrote: post #304
enlyth wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious, what is it with Microsoft that makes it so poisonous for you that you won't touch anything they make with a ten foot pole? As an example, I'd say Facebook (Meta) is a way more toxic company but I've never heard of a developer have moral arguments against using React

us old farts remember Microsoft (and Gates) as true villains. Things have changed but those wounds run deep and the scars remain. Every time i see the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation in the news all i can see is Bill trying to buy his way into heaven.

I never considered Microsoft as villains in the 90s. They were the only company making computers usable, and thanks to them I didn't have to use the archaic Unix systems that were prevalent at the time. Microsoft was being unfairly punished for things that are commonplace today, like integrating browsers with operating systems.

Re: The Case for C# and .NET

#354

Post by KronisLV »

raydiatian wrote: post #328
KronisLV wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want to write C# just write go I don't get this. If you want to write C#, write C#. If you want to write Go, just write Go. Go is a great language because of its simplicity and ecosystem, has lots of useful things in the standard library, has pretty good runtime performance and also compiles to static executables easily (which is especially useful for projects like Nomad). It's both a good fit for web develo…

> I don’t get this That’s because my argument has nothing to do with the language itself but you still felt compelled to write an essay. I’m saying the modern Linux-based tooling, ecosystem, and devex of C# is inferior to so many other choices.

I don't get it because the claim that "If you want to write code in language X, just use language Y" doesn't vibe well with me. It feels needlessly dismissive somehow.

Hence the exploration of the good things about each of the languages and genuine reasons why people might enjoy using them for slightly different use cases.

At the end of the day, everyone can make that choice for themselves, unless their org makes it for them.

Re: The Case for C# and .NET

#355

Post by The_Colonel »

metaltyphoon wrote: post #334
The_Colonel wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shitting on Java is part of .NET ethos (I've worked in a couple of .NET shops)

I think that's part of every other language's ethos.

In the Java dev teams I haven't noticed any common target that would be consistently shat on.

Re: The Case for C# and .NET

#356

Post by toyg »

hu3 wrote: post #310
toyg wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hope you realize non-web development is a niche nowadays. That's a terrible attitude. If you want a certain ecosystem to get a better rep, you have to be ready to talk with different communities, and accept their feedback. Python is what it is largely because it can cater to a large number of these very different communities, which has ensured its long-term success. Compare with Ruby, which became effectively a w…

> If you want a certain ecosystem to get a better rep, you have to be ready to talk with different communities, and accept their feedback. Hard disagree. I prefer specialized tools over jack-of-all-trades. Otherwise we would be coding web applications in assembly. Your example, Ruby, wouldn't even be a blip in history radar if it wasn't for Ruby on Rails, a specialized and very productive toolkit. Just because RoR no…

> Otherwise we would be coding web applications in assembly

Some people write web-apps in C. Just because you don't like something, it doesn't mean the world agrees.

>Ruby, wouldn't even be a blip in history radar if it wasn't for Ruby on Rails

Hard disagree. Ruby was getting traction on its own, as "the purest OOP language you can use in the real world", around the same time Python was starting to get traction (early 2000s). Then RoR blew up, effectively coopting the entire ecosystem. Since then, Python has slowly gone from strength to strength in so many different fields, whereas Ruby died on its ass as soon as people moved on to other tools for web.

Re: The Case for C# and .NET

#357

Post by SZJX »

This article seems to be a lot focused on why you should be careful about using JavaScript for backend development. C#/.NET is one valid alternative, but many others surely also provide similar benefits and also avoid the pitfalls of JS. I agree that .NET is really solid and seems often unfairly seen in a negative light though.

Re: The Case for C# and .NET

#358

Post by SZJX »

202206241203 wrote: post #255
TheRealDunkirk wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you like the productivity, just wait till you try Rails.

Rails is still a thing in 2022?

PHP is still a thing since time immemorial… And will remain there for a long time to come. (Seems like they made quite some improvements in the latest iterations as well.)

Re: The Case for C# and .NET

#359

Post by Akronymus »

EnKopVand wrote: post #152
chocolatemario wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a C# developer I could say the same about my experience dealing with my first foray into [insert random language] and my attempt to develop [something with a non-trivial framework]. The issues you had could be attacked by navigating through this section of documentation, diving into the tutorial referenced in the beginning of the Overview section and the subsequent sections: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/aspnet…

I’ve been a C# developer for a decade and I still think it’s hopelessly convoluted for getting very simple things up and running. Maybe there is something wrong with me, but it’s just not intuitive to me and it has frankly never been. I do think the move to core and then core to .net has improved things, but it’s still a really weird and way of doing things compared to other languages that I have worked with, and mos…

> I’ve been a C# developer for a decade and I still think it’s hopelessly convoluted for getting very simple things up and running.

For me, fsharp interactive is one of the best prototyping experience I have ever experienced.

Re: The Case for C# and .NET

#360

Post by toyg »

osigurdson wrote: post #317
toyg wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They definitely see Go as direct competition, or did at various points. Some of the work that was done in Python 15 years ago is now done in Go, mostly because of its superior support for highly-parallel workloads; so Python developers have reacted and improved the parallelization story in various ways (yes, it's still not as good as it could be, but it's undoubtedly better than it was when Go took a significant bite…

I don’t see Python having a lot to offer in terms of technical merit really. Python’s strength is language ergonomics and fun factor. I hope they keep it that way.

Language ergonomic is a technical merit, as opposed to commercial merit (how many companies push it, how many developers are available, etc).
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