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High property taxes are good

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351–360 of 620 posts

Re: High property taxes are good

#351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A land value tax would incentivize residential landowners to build more units which provides more supply and would lower rents Zoning usually dictates what's allowed and is indifferent to tax rates

Exclusionary zoning exists because of NIMBYism. NIMBYism exists because of the financial incentive to raise land values. That financial incentive exists because of a lack of taxation on land value.

Not sure I agree. Or doesn't fit with my experience/city/state.

All zoning is exclusionary to my knowledge. That's the entire point. It's not necessary but it exists because it exists. And, it's sticky. It was established most likely when the entire city was raw land and undeveloped; so it served as a plan for development. There was no NIMBY because people were building their BY. Because there was a plan, you could decide where you wanted to build that BY.

Once you have developed the land, raised family, lived in a house for decade(s), and the city around you develops and changes. Now, your property maybe better utilized as a multifamily complex or a nuclear reactor, or anything really. But, it's your home and you shouldn't be taxed out of it. Rezoning as a process is may difficult and probably should be. There's a lot of stakeholders/neighbors who are impacted by a change. They should have some say. It just so happens that those people who bought a single family house in a single family neighborhood tend to prefer it to stay that way so they get called NIMBY but it's a completely rational perspective to have if you were in their shoes. Thus, an introduction of this tax only serves to displace the current owners who can not afford the new tax bill and does nothing to change the actual zoning. So the result is, richer people with bigger tax-bill budgets move in and your even further into the NIMBYism trap not even realizing you're in a zoning trap.

If you open up the zoning (and perhaps the building restrictions), the best and highest uses can actually prevail.

Re: High property taxes are good

#352
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A land value tax would incentivize residential landowners to build more units which provides more supply and would lower rents Zoning usually dictates what's allowed and is indifferent to tax rates

There is zoning, and then also the cost of development. Here, the reason why no starter homes are being built is because the cost to develop a subdivision is so high that no one can make a profit selling inexpensive homes.

Where is "here"?

Re: High property taxes are good

#353

property taxes are used to pay for services that the local government provides. when property taxes are high, it means that either the local government is proving more services, the local government is in debt and needs to raise taxes to finance its debt, or the cost of those basic services has risen. At the end of the day your local government needs to spend almost every penny it gets. If they have extra money, they…

Property taxes paying for local services keeps poor people poor. I don't understand why people think this is ethical. Property tax is possibly the worst way to fund the government. The only thing it's really good at is imposing a market force. It's largely regressive. In fact it's almost identical to gas tax. All flat taxes are regressive.

on the contrary, property tax is actually a good way for people to pay for what they voted for. If your town voted to increase the education budget, your property tax directly goes into that. You are not paying for something that your town did not vote for.

Property tax can be regressive within a community, but can often be progressive within a county/state. Different towns can have different property tax rates. Rich people would actually prefer a higher property tax to a certain degree to keep the poor out. If the avg property tax is 2k a month, then everyone living there needs to make at least 6 figures.

Re: High property taxes are good

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about giving preference to owner-occupants; it's about neutralizing the preference to landlords that would otherwise result.

Again, that is inherently a policy decision that reduces density and affordability; by definition, "landlords" are people that own and operate multi-family dwellings. You could just as easily ask "why not give more of a preference to landlords?" It's probably useful for you to understand my, uh, priors? about this, which include the fact that I live in an overwhelmingly SFZ community that actively works to prevent th…

[deleted]

Re: High property taxes are good

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see no evidence at all that increased density is a livability problem for families, and plenty of --- in fact, overwhelming --- that inadequate density is a bar for access to communities in the first place. So, no, I reject this argument outright.

As the other poster said, the urban sprawl and ridiculous commutes that you see in every city are overwhelming evidence. The lack of family-suitable housing in urban centres is to blame, and the prioritization along single metrics, like obsessing over "density-only" because it generates more returns on investment, shares a lot of the blame. Density is not the only metric to consider.

No, they're not. Urban sprawl is the result of deficient density. People who want low density can commute. For any fixed population, decreasing density must, obviously, increase commute times and sprawl. This isn't complicated, though appeals to "return on investment" cloud the issue.

Of course, part of the subtext of these discussions is that proponents of SFZ and owner-occupancy tend also to believe that their favorite cities should have controlled population growth. It's just not a good look to say that out loud.

Re: High property taxes are good

#356
I agree with this article, housing shouldn't be an "investment" but rather a place to live and have a good life.

By taxing it, it provides disincentive for people to use it as an income generating or speculative asset.

We shouldn't view housing as a way to "get rich" but housing actually provides much better utility if it's price is stable and not prone to boom bust cycles. Since more people would be able to buy at any given time for their budget if prices stay low.

Re: High property taxes are good

#357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It forced a reduction in the out-of-control government spending No, it didn't. California just kept adding taxes everywhere else to make up the difference and still had an annual deficit most of the 13 years I lived there. > It saved seniors from losing their houses Why are seniors magically allowed to be immune to basic market forces when no one else is?

> Why are seniors magically allowed to be immune to basic market forces when no one else is? Because they have fixed incomes (generally). This income is immune to market forces. That's why. While many elderly invested wisely (and at the right time) to become wealthy, especially when leveraging dips (like during the 80s), it doesn't change the average case. Living month to month on a fixed income is the norm after ret…

Except, while it was always rhetorically useful to talk about seniors with limited and fixed incomes being able to stay in their homes, Prop 13 also benefits people with multiple homes, landlords with rental properties, kids inheriting their parents house and running it as an AirBnb, etc. It benefits _corporations_ and non-residential property. Corporations can also skirt around it by not triggering a reassessment by not transferring ownership all at once.

Meanwhile, why are only senior home owners worthy of that stability? Why do seniors who rent not get rent stabilization as a matter of law?

If this were really motivated out of altruistic concern for vulnerable retirees, the law would look very different.

Re: High property taxes are good

#358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It forced a reduction in the out-of-control government spending No, it didn't. California just kept adding taxes everywhere else to make up the difference and still had an annual deficit most of the 13 years I lived there. > It saved seniors from losing their houses Why are seniors magically allowed to be immune to basic market forces when no one else is?

> Why are seniors magically allowed to be immune to basic market forces when no one else is? Because they have fixed incomes (generally). This income is immune to market forces. That's why. While many elderly invested wisely (and at the right time) to become wealthy, especially when leveraging dips (like during the 80s), it doesn't change the average case. Living month to month on a fixed income is the norm after ret…

That doesn't mean they should be excused from paying their fair share, especially since the elderly make greater use of public services. Float the tax rates to the market level and allow fixed income elderly to accrue a lien against the property that can be paid out of the estate when they die.

Re: High property taxes are good

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

property taxes are terrible for old people. you should be able to buy a reasonable amount of land tax free. USA has about 2.5 billion acres. 1/4 acre per person in an average area tax free is reasonable.

Just allow the elderly to accrue property/land tax debts against the value of the property, redeemed when sold/transferred or on death.

Agreed. Reducing or eliminating the property tax benefits the beneficiaries more than the elderly themselves.

Re: High property taxes are good

#360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These end up with wildly differing figures. Somehow my purchase price is $772k, my insured price is $225k, my property tax valuation is $302k, and the market price now is either $800k or $1200k, depending on if you're asking to sell it or use it as collateral! Nobody agrees on what property is worth.

Insured price is based on the structure, not the land. If your house burns down, that's the part they need to spend money replacing. Valuing a structure's replacement cost is (fairly) straightforward based on materials, current labor costs, etc.

And so there is a way to get a reasonable approximation of land value: Subtract the insured value of the improvements (which should be accurate by virtue of being determined by a profitable insurance company in a competitive market) from the appraised property value (which there are generally accepted methods for figuring).
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