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In defense of coding interviews

biggestfish.substack.com

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Re: In defense of coding interviews

#351

Post by Cd00d »

koonsolo wrote: post #340
ipaddr wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are different skill sets. Someone may know and know how to properly use var, let and const according to standards and current trends. They may understand it deeply. But that doesn't mean that they can explain it to you. The question changes to: is what you are testing the actual skill you need? Are you hiring a teacher who is going to explain var,let,const as part of their job or are you hiring someone who need…

> that doesn't mean that they can explain it to you. I'm sorry what? I don't expect them to teach me, I just want them to tell the difference. By the way, the ones that can't say: "they told me to always use let". I'll send them to you :D. Best of luck. > I've never seen a senior developer fired for poor coding. I've seen plenty. If a junior dev needs to help you out of trouble every time, you know there is something…

Look. I've seen a lot of your comments in this thread, and I don't think you're listening. You don't seem open to hearing.

What I read is a knee jerk justification for your hiring methodology without being open to any feedback.

You should take a breath. Clearly people disagree with you. Try to empathize with where they're coming from and understand the point they're trying to make.

Re: In defense of coding interviews

#352

Post by Cd00d »

jordanpg wrote: post #230
d--b wrote: post #56

The dirty secret is that it’s never about the coding skills. It’s about the person’s behavior, the way he/she interacts with you. It’s about the person’s culture, tabs vs space, and that kind of things. And it’s mostly about whether you like the person or not. And I think it’s fine. You mainly need to be sure that the person knows what a for loop is, other than that, most people are ok at programming. What really mat…

SWE to lawyer here. The analogs of the traditional coding interview in the law school world are the LSAT and classroom timed memory tests. Both have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with being a lawyer or the kinds of activities that lawyers actually do. What they are are intelligence tests. They are easy ways for judges and top tier law firms to tell if you are "one of them." You can get your foot in the door if…

Aren't those one time things that define the future of your career? Sort of a pedigree being established?

You can go to a top tier university, land a great job for several years, have positive references, and still be required to do leet code for a recruiter... that seems like ongoing gatekeeping, rather than a one-time effort/pass.

Re: In defense of coding interviews

#353

Post by jwmoz »

On the last type, I had one where I had to write code for a checkout system with the developer sitting next to me. I hated the pressure and felt very stressed, halfway through the problem I hit a bug and my mind went literally blank, all the map in my mind of variables, flow etc literally went black. I remember it happening and I totally lost myself, ended up looking out the window for a while at the sun shining on a building. Somehow got it back and ended up finishing the task and I remember basically shouting I'd finished and that that was it, I wouldn't do anymore as I was so relieved it was over.

Got the job.

Re: In defense of coding interviews

#354

Post by jwmoz »

vletal wrote: post #160
vorpalhex wrote: post #27

"Can coding interviews work in an ideal world" which is what the article seems to discuss: sure, probably, this seems like a reasonable approach to what that ideal world might look like: a really carefully chosen question and attempting to understand the process the candidate is using to comprehend their skill. "Do coding interviews work in the actual world in which we live in?" No, fundamentally not. Almost nobody i…

I've just interviewed for Google and Meta. In total I went through 8 individual coding interviews. With an exception of one, which was a bit too much like a puzzle, I think the assignments were completely fair examples of what I might experience on daily basis. Not at all tailored to people doing competition style programming, which was what I expected after being exposed to HN for years. I have to say I enjoyed both…

Congratulations, there is no chance in hell I would put myself through that.

Re: In defense of coding interviews

#355

Post by vletal »

bradlys wrote: post #309
vletal wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've just interviewed for Google and Meta. In total I went through 8 individual coding interviews. With an exception of one, which was a bit too much like a puzzle, I think the assignments were completely fair examples of what I might experience on daily basis. Not at all tailored to people doing competition style programming, which was what I expected after being exposed to HN for years. I have to say I enjoyed both…

As someone who has done the interview rounds at FAANG and many dozens of other companies in SV - you either work in algorithmic work or got lucky with your questions. The questions that are asked have little to no basis in my daily work as an engineer. Same is true for the hundreds of other engineers I’ve worked with who have gone through the same hoops that I have.

Interesting. Might have been just lucky.

Re: In defense of coding interviews

#356

Post by vletal »

jwmoz wrote: post #354
vletal wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've just interviewed for Google and Meta. In total I went through 8 individual coding interviews. With an exception of one, which was a bit too much like a puzzle, I think the assignments were completely fair examples of what I might experience on daily basis. Not at all tailored to people doing competition style programming, which was what I expected after being exposed to HN for years. I have to say I enjoyed both…

Congratulations, there is no chance in hell I would put myself through that.

Well. I definitely underperformed at Meta. Google went great IMO with a few stumbles here and there. No feedback yet. Wish me luck.

Re: In defense of coding interviews

#357

Post by dlkf »

Cd00d wrote: post #350
dlkf wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're also maximizing the odds they will get bored and feel baited. I like this point. This is an especially big problem in my area (data science), in which people think they are being hired to do deep representation learning, and are subsequently mortified to learn that the job is principally about transpiling ”product manager” to ”SQL”. The cure is to be up front with job candidates. Tell them the job involves n…

> I believe you want to optimize for the hardest day rather than the average day. I think this is a huge mistake. I work in data science, and nearly universally my colleagues are motivated by opportunities to learn. If you're testing for the very rare day, so that your employee has the right answer in their front pocket when that happens they are never going to feel challenged, feel like they're growing, and they're…

> If you're testing for the very rare day, so that your employee has the right answer in their front pocket

On the hard days, the answer has never been seen before, and therefore can’t be in anyone’s pocket. You need to know that you have employees who are smart enough to discover it. Technical interviews are how you find them.

The observation that your employees are motivated by learning opportunities is useful for how you manage them, but this doesn’t tell us how to hire people who can do the job.

Re: In defense of coding interviews

#358

Post by koonsolo »

Cd00d wrote: post #351
koonsolo wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that doesn't mean that they can explain it to you. I'm sorry what? I don't expect them to teach me, I just want them to tell the difference. By the way, the ones that can't say: "they told me to always use let". I'll send them to you :D. Best of luck. > I've never seen a senior developer fired for poor coding. I've seen plenty. If a junior dev needs to help you out of trouble every time, you know there is something…

Look. I've seen a lot of your comments in this thread, and I don't think you're listening. You don't seem open to hearing . What I read is a knee jerk justification for your hiring methodology without being open to any feedback. You should take a breath. Clearly people disagree with you. Try to empathize with where they're coming from and understand the point they're trying to make.

Ok, so what's the ideal hiring practice then? According to some here, it's just a little talk about previous experiences, not going into technical details at all. Sorry, but then you end up with people who are technically very weak. Been there done that.

Look, I have a lot of experience with the hiring process. It's very difficult. I will listen to someone with a lot of hiring experience. But just saying "it's broken" isn't going to cut it.

And remark that a big part of our hiring practice is to put the candidate at ease. I even say that they won't get everything right, and that's no problem. I help them out when they get stuck, etc.

Re: In defense of coding interviews

#359

Post by native_samples »

lapcat wrote: post #249
native_samples wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The second sentence may be true but the former isn't. People who break down and cry in interviews are rare but if they do it, they are best avoided and it was good that the interview revealed this. You cannot have that happening on the job but if they can't handle being asked to program something whilst up against a time limit or being watched, they're going to have breakdowns in other situations too.

I've written at length about this before, so I'll just give a link instead of repeating the whole screed, but it's a misconception to equate interview anxiety with job anxiety. They're distinct and not necessarily correlated. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31377459

It's obviously unpopular, but the brutal reality is that the vast majority of candidates don't panic during interviews and can in fact demonstrate their skills when asked. I've done lots of interviewing and you aren't going to convince me or anyone else actually that breakdowns in an interview are completely irrelevant, especially when all you've been asked to do is demonstrate that you're actually qualified. It's also frankly a bit insulting to people who learned to control their emotions and work under pressure to expect that this behaviour be ignored in others who never learned to do it.

Re: In defense of coding interviews

#360

Post by weatherlite »

native_samples wrote: post #359
lapcat wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've written at length about this before, so I'll just give a link instead of repeating the whole screed, but it's a misconception to equate interview anxiety with job anxiety. They're distinct and not necessarily correlated. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31377459

It's obviously unpopular, but the brutal reality is that the vast majority of candidates don't panic during interviews and can in fact demonstrate their skills when asked. I've done lots of interviewing and you aren't going to convince me or anyone else actually that breakdowns in an interview are completely irrelevant, especially when all you've been asked to do is demonstrate that you're actually qualified. It's al…

> the brutal reality is that the vast majority of candidates don't panic during interviews and can in fact demonstrate their skills

For a given job most candidates actually don't get hired, often because they are not a good fit but many times because they are too nervous to think straight.

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