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Kids are far behind in school

theatlantic.com

351–360 of 389 posts

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#351
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a worrisome line of reasoning -- that you can't act to protect children until you have 'all the data' about this or that narrow threat vector.

It's a worrisome dilemma, in which you are forced to reason. There is no win scenario, only varying degrees of unknown loss states.

It’s not, though. “Dilemma” implies only two possibilities, but “varying degrees” implies many. This argument is incoherent.

There were lots of alternate futures, ranging from “the whole world, everywhere, utterly locked down schools for the past 2+ years” to “the whole world, everywhere, utterly refused to lock down schools for the past 2+ years”, and everywhere in between in terms of which schools, which policies, when, and for how long.

We can definitely talk about what sets of choices would have had better outcomes.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. If everyone is behind, are you?

If everyone is behind then society is behind. It isn't a problem for society if one kid is behind, but it starts to be a problem when millions of kids are behind.

I would like to bring up the question again of “compared to what?”

Are the metrics:

1. Based on university entrance (in which case you need to recourse and ask the same questions of that) or

2. Based on some pragmatic list of things that will help the child become a good part of society or

3. Completely arbitrary.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#353
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In fact, a concerned parent will wildly outperform a school teacher. A parent teaches maybe 2 students per day. A school teacher teaches maybe 200 students per day. It's an unfair comparison.

I'm struggling to find the purpose of this reply. Do you believe that saying "no fair!" invalidates the superior outcomes for home-schooled children? If billions of dollars of state funding and the teachers' aggregate decades of university education can't overcome this obstacle (which did not seem to be a problem when children in one-room schoolhouses routinely used to learn Latin), I'm wondering what other advantage…

> if it takes 1 or 2 hours a day to "keep up" with the standard curriculum in grade school, and "schooled" students are sent home with 1 or 2 hours of homework, after they attend "school" all day -- what is the purpose of sending kids to these institutions?

OMG OMG OMG this!

It’s amazing how little time it takes to keep up with school. It’s so completely clear once you clear the fog that school is mostly just day care so both parents can have a job outside of the house and increase the output of the economy.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#354

My wife teaches 2nd grade in a public school. She has kids this year who had not been in school since kindergarten. It is difficult to cover such an achievement gap when other kids in the class are on level. It's worse yet when our state has outsourced federal pandemic education fund distribution to 3rd parties which allowed people to purchase Xboxes and TVs. And even worse yet as her district is focusing on putting…

> And even worse yet as her district is focusing on putting AppleTVs in every room while buying curriculum that has no books.

I agree that Apple TVs in classrooms is a waste of money, but I don't remember text books being particularly useful, either. We covered between 25% and 50% of the contents of the book, and maybe had assigned reading for half of what was covered.

Textbooks are also a bit of a racket, too. The contents and pedagogy generally move very slowly, but legislators and parents like to micromanage contents, and textbook makers are happy to oblige. The number of, say, algebra, books across the US is probably embarrassing, as is the fact that there isn't a movement for public domain textbooks.

Novels are different. With 5 books per year at $4 per book with books lasting a few years, I'm less concerned.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would love to see the data you have showing that private schools that stayed open, or public schools that fought to stay open, contributed significantly to additional deaths, such that “millions more dead” would even be a fair comparison to the impact of schools choosing to go virtual instead.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8266060/ > Early evidence indicated that schools were low risk and children were unlikely to be very infectious, but it is becoming clear that children and youth can acquire and transmit COVID-19 in school settings and that transmission clusters and outbreaks can be large.

Thanks! A little confused though, the protocols run here all assume the classroom stays in-person and just goes into different isolation measures.

Most of the protocols (besides the baseline, do-nothing protocol) have some effect, but aren’t perfect.

> None of the mitigation protocols we modeled, initiated by a positive test in a symptomatic individual, are able to prevent large transmission clusters unless the transmission rate is low (in which case large clusters do not occur in any case). Among the measures we modeled, only rapid universal monitoring (for example by regular, onsite, pooled testing) accomplished this prevention.

But as it says there, prevention can be achieved by emphasizing frequent on-site testing (which is super consistent with what we know about avoiding spread events generally).

> Without closing schools down entirely, if we want to prevent large clusters from occurring altogether, this leaves approaches to detect potential index cases before they show symptoms. Pooled testing, wastewater monitoring and airflow monitoring have all been proposed with this aim [42, 43]. We simulated introduced cases and resulting transmission under the baseline of no regular testing (with the same baseline as above, symptomatic individuals going home) and compared this to weekly or every three day testing or environmental monitoring covering all individuals in the class. The results for the total cluster size are shown in Fig 6. Regular pooled or otherwise universal testing dramatically reduces the sizes of even the most unfortunate clusters (infectious index, higher-risk room), for example from a median of 12 to a median size of 3 if the index is asymptomatic. But even with regular pooled or otherwise universal testing, testing in a matter of hours (e.g. onsite) has a substantially greater impact than testing at a centralized laboratory (if that takes 2 days including shipping time).

This doesn’t seem like a strong argument in favor of virtual school?

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#357

Any guesses what the long term consequences might be? I have a hard time imagining anything more dire than the immediate consequences of social isolation during the pandemic. In other words, I think the kids that make it through are going to be okay.

The effects will probably be small but measurable on average, with significantly worse effects on poorer kids or kids that were already struggling to begin with. The closest example to something like this happening is probably major teacher strikes. Kids in Argentina during the teachers strikes of the 1980s lost an average of 88 days of primary education and today make about 3% less per year than you would expect giv…

Based on TFA's numbers, 88 days seems close enough on the academic scale. Social is probably worse (kids probably played with their friends while teachers were striking), and that's also a big component of earnings. I'd guess 6% less earnings, though it'll really depend on how old they were in 2020. It also exacerbates inequality.

The interesting question is whether there's a 20-year block with lower performance, or there are spikes at certain points. I imagine anyone starting professional work out of college in 2020 is effectively a year behind by now. Someone who started in 2015, not so much. I'm not sure if something similar applies to school.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, we should not fall prey to resulting. It's not about what we did know, it's about what we didn't. Early on, we had no idea how the virus was interacting with children and the school system. Being under-cautious would have been the wrong move, because the worst case scenario was horrifying.

If you can’t evaluate decisions or experiments on outcome, what can you measure them on? And why would you bother to? How would you learn from those decisions? The worst case scenario is bound to be horrifying, by definition. That’s not an excuse for waffling out of making a tough call.

The evaluation of the quality of the decision should be made by taking into account the constraints and quality of priors that were inputs into the decision. Outcomes are probabilistic. Using results as the evaluation metric is mistake.

We did not know how the pandemic was interacting with children and the school system. But we did know that it had deathly, chaotic, fast moving properties. The worst case outcome was not a fantasy. We had reasons to think that the worst case outcome was not improbable. Because we were dealing with an existential threat to possibly our most precious resource, we acted defensively, even though many of us were aware of the deep, problematic tradeoffs.

It was the right decision.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, we should not fall prey to resulting. It's not about what we did know, it's about what we didn't. Early on, we had no idea how the virus was interacting with children and the school system. Being under-cautious would have been the wrong move, because the worst case scenario was horrifying.

Schools didn't close until late March. There was weeks of data from western society by then. The basic understanding of the contagion, what drove the pandemic, and mortality numbers across age groups was known. The data has become more specific since, but not dramatically different.

The schools closed before we allowed the virus to course through the school system. We did not have good data. The decisions to close the schools was made to prevent the conditions that would supply that data.

Re: Kids are far behind in school

#360
Most universities in Canada were completely online for almost 2 years. Was it the same for grade schools in the states? I have no idea what level of restrictions this article is about
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