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World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

reuters.com

351–360 of 420 posts

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps not under your preferred moral system. But yours is not the only moral system. It should be obvious that there are plenty of moral systems where counterfactuals do indeed affect the morality of actions (e.g. any utilitarian system or compound system with a utilitarian component).

What moral belief system posits that it is moral to do something simply because someone else would do it? Does anyone actual subscribe to such a belief? Do you?

I think you're reading me more broadly than I meant you to. As I mentioned in my comment, at a minimum, any utilitarian system would consider an action's morality in light of what would happen in the absence of that action. Yes, people absolutely do subscribe to utilitarian systems, at least as a component of their overall moral stance.

There are also of course many moral systems that do not value the welfare of other species as highly as that of humans.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#352

I used to do research at the Shedd Aquarium. After watching a particularly clever octopus defeat every attempt to prevent him leaving his enclosure at night, I am absolutely confident that, just like certain aquatic mammals such as Orca whales, that we only devalue their intelligence because they were unfortunate enough to not be in a situation where they could develop significant tool use and the cultural artifacts…

If there will force to push for veganism, it won’t be PETAs approach of showing grotesque treatment of animals in factory farms. It will be death-by-a-thousand cuts from individual anecdotes of animals demonstrating human-like qualities.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#353
post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I did not eat octopus prior to this but I became firmly in support of encouraging everyone to avoid eating octopus and related creatures after this experience. Not only do I think they're immensely intelligent animals, I am firmly convinced that this particular specimen was smarter than a number of humans that I have met. Where I live octopus is a very popular food, representative of our gastronomy. I love everythi…

I am mainly a vegetarian, although I will eat ethically raised eggs and dairy products. I grew up in farm country and will also, on a very rare occasion, eat cattle raised on a proper farm/ranch - even though I absolutely love cows, who can be extremely affectionate, I believe they can be slaughtered relatively humanely. Cephalopods, on the other hand, are extremely difficult to farm in the wild or cull. They show im…

> The intense response by octopi to their impending slaughter shows me a level of emotion and intelligence that is eerily close to our own.

It’s almost an expression of existential dread and the realization the end is nigh.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#354
post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not a vegetarian and I still really hate that “if I wasn’t farmed I wouldn’t exist at all” argument because it’s really just an excuse to be shitty to other life forms. The fact is if you didn’t exist then you wouldn’t care either way, so it’s a moot argument. The fact that you do exist changes that, not excuses it. Or in other words: we are not doing other species a favour by eating them. It’s also worth noting…

If farming result in the existence of happy animals then the process definitely favors them. If it results in their unhappy existence then it does not favor them. The argument around doing them the favor of providing them existence relies on them having a nice life, until the day we eat them. It sounds like you are opposed to them coming into existence because it means they exist in existential agony. Also that physi…

When done responsibly, it's pretty clear ranch cattle are in the same or less physical agony as their counter parts. Where I live, it's not uncommon to see wild elk, antelope and sometimes even bison grazing alongside cattle. The wild ones must fend off predators and often starve during the winters. Cattle do not.

The same cannot be said for industrial scale ranching. In fact, I think the production of dairy is typically far more more inhumane than that of beef.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuine question and not an attempt to bait you, but curious why the latter is a ridiculous argument? I’ve not heard that argument, but I have seen the occasional piece of research pop up to suggest there’s more complicated communication or social structures in plants. Particularly fungi. I’ve no idea how true any of it is and what why more may learn about that in the coming decades. So while I personally don’t have…

I'm definitely open to discussing the possibility when it's with someone arguing in good faith. It seems like that's where you're coming from, so thank you. I won't bury the lede further. Plants can't experience pain, at least insofar as we conceive of it, because they don't have nociceptors that signal pain. Therefore, if they do have any sort of phenomenological experience, whether it would be recognizable to us or…

I'm writing the arguments and questions below in good faith. I'm legitimately conflicted over this, and I admit that I haven't engaged in any research on this subject.

From what I can tell, the moral argument that you're presenting seems to boils down to the fact that we arbitrarily value animal life more than other kinds of life. I'm not saying that this is somehow "wrong" -- I'm bothered by the fact that the it's often presented in a way that makes it seem like it's some kind of universal truth, based on some criteria of the subject itself (e.g. presence of certain biological structures or phenomena), rather than specifics about the human experience.

> Plants can't experience pain, at least insofar as we conceive of it, because they don't have nociceptors that signal pain. Therefore, if they do have any sort of phenomenological experience, whether it would be recognizable to us or not, there is no sense in describing anything they experience as "pain".

So, they lack the biological machinery to feel (let's call it) animal-like pain. Is the argument that it's our moral obligation to reduce the phenomenological experience of animal-like pain in this universe? And by extension, that other kinds of "pain" (for lack of a better word) are less important? If so, isn't it more to-the-point to simply say "we shouldn't hurt things that are like us"? (This simple perspective is obviously problematic in its own ways -- I'm not necessarily advocating for it -- I'm just trying to clarify the essence of what I'll call the "nociceptor argument").

> A final point on the deficit of nociception, is that the experience of pain is so central to our lived experience that it's difficult to conceive of what that would be like. It's like the alpha channel in rgba... Without that signal for opacity, there's no color at all.

The argument here seems to be something like: "it's incomprehensible to humans, so therefore it doesn't exist." Again, it seems more straightforward to simply say that the fundamental criteria is whether or not the thing experiencing "pain" is sufficiently "like us".

I think basically what I'm trying to say is this: the "nociceptor argument" feels like a way of skirting around the fact that morality regarding animal rights boils down to human-specific feelings we have about animals -- and that those feelings are rooted in the fact that they're like us, and some quirk of our psychology causes (most of) us to feel pain when we see or imagine something like us in pain.

I personally don't believe that reality has hard boundaries of the kind that the "nociceptor argument" presupposes. Humans conceived those boundaries because they're useful to us as a part of how we model reality. From your response to another commenter ("...the last is not really the type of argument that I find fascinating beyond its relevance to social ritual or linguistic games"), I imagine you might find these arguments to be too metaphysical for your taste, but in my opinion, it's important for people to realize that these moral frameworks are rooted in human culture and psychology, not some biological reality independent of our species.

I'd be very happy to hear your thoughts or rebuttals, if you care to share them.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#356
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The thing is, modern logistics make it possible to eat fresh Sushi in the middle of Kansas. Being away from the coasts isn't really an excuse as the availability is or can be approximately the same. Flash freezing is relatively new technology (I assume that’s what you mean by “fresh”). It is not surprising midwesterners go all out on sushi (the real kind, not Californian roles) just because the logistics are easier…

Nah, by fresh I mean caught, loaded from a boat onto a truck with ice and driven to its destination. The miracle of the National Highway System makes Boston to San Diego a 50 hour possibility. Surely the people of Springfield Missouri would be fine with iced, fresh, 20 hour old fish caught off the coast of Connecticut! You can get an entire boat of fish from the Gulf Coast to Kansas City same day by road. Delaware to…

Flash freezing is required by the FDA for eaten raw seafood no matter how fresh it is. It has been since the 90s I think. Flash freezing is used throughout the world on most seafood these days sans a few old school Japanese institutions.

Because everything undergoes flash freezing in the boat anyways, 8 hours or 8 days isn’t going to matter much.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But Americans are largely people who consider seafood to start and stop at canned tuna so... That isn’t very accurate. Coastal Americans have had plenty of seafood to choose from, consider when they would serve lobsters to prisoners. Alaska is full of seafood to the point that it is a staple (and considering many of the Inuit communities who have been on that diet for thousands of years). Just because the customs a…

When you mention a quintessential US state I wouldn't arrive at Alaska or New Orleans

America is a huge country. Europe is huge as well, it’s not surprising that there are regional differences in our diet, and trying to generalize is always going to tick someone off.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> though I eat a lot of eggs and some dairy still. See, I feel like this just erodes from your argument. There’s not necessarily any trauma at all to the chickens or the cows involved in the production of eggs or milk. Trying to group that with the consumption of meat feels just very irrational.

Yes there is. Egg farms grind male chicks alive. They burn off the tip of the hens beak without anesthesia (which we know is high in nerves) so they don’t fight each other in captivity; which they don’t do nearly as much in nature because surprise surprise they’re not as stressed. Hens laying eggs every single day of their lives (because they’re taken away daily) live much much shorter lives and develop physiological…

Great job arguing something I already agree about and similarly abhor while also completely missing the point: I specifically said “necessarily.”

We have family friends that provide eggs and milk from their free range chickens and cows and that’s certainly not how they do it. Your fight is with greed enabled by capitalism leading to these animal abuses, not people who want to eat/drink their eggs or dairy.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> though I eat a lot of eggs and some dairy still. See, I feel like this just erodes from your argument. There’s not necessarily any trauma at all to the chickens or the cows involved in the production of eggs or milk. Trying to group that with the consumption of meat feels just very irrational.

Do you believe that there’s no trauma involved in the dairy and egg industry? Spend a few minutes watching this about dairy. https://youtu.be/roIWg4ntj9k Earthling Ed also has videos about egg industry, but the gist is make chicks are crushed in a meat grinder alive.

That’s greed enabled by modern capitalism and general “don’t ask don’t tell” apathy. That’s not how milk and eggs were produced for the majority of mankind’s existence after the transition from hunter/gatherer to farming.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#360
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree and your comparisons aren't accurate. A more accurate comparison would he to say its like "I'm going to ride my bike to work once a week" or "I'll pick up trash at the local park once a week". I don't have to view eating meat or driving my car an inherently immoral in order to recognize the objective negative ecological impact that those actions have, and to therefore want to engage in some form of harm re…

At risk of getting tedious here, the even-more accurate comparison would be "I'm gonna limit paying someone else to kick a dog from Tuesday to Sunday". Since there actually exists real-life animal abuse in the case of paying for meat or any animal product ( including dairy ).

I would think that's still not as accurate as the above examples. That implies a form of intended malice and wish to do harm at no personal gain. If the factory in which my car is manufactured happens to employ children that doesn't mean I'm paying for child labor - I'm paying for a car regardless of how it's produced. The attempt to shift the blame to the consumer here fallacious.
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