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Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

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Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#351

Post by glogla »

mopsi wrote: post #305
vetinari wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In order to use nukes effectively, you need to have second strike capabilities. You know, the 'M' in 'MAD'. Ukraine in NATO means US nukes on Russia border, tipping the balance. It would be similar to Russia placing their bases and weapons into Canada or Mexico.

> Ukraine in NATO means US nukes on Russia border, tipping the balance. No, it does not. A number of Eastern European countries are in NATO and none of them have American nuclear weapons. Where does this silly idea come that after joining NATO, American missiles somehow appear in the new member? Modern-day NATO is a cooperation platform for joint exercises etc, not some missile club that starts delivering ICBMs every…

> Where does this silly idea come that after joining NATO, American missiles somehow appear in the new member?

It is not silly idea, it is Russian misinformation. "The corrupt fascist gay West we are under constant attack by wants to put army on our borders," except in nicer words.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#352

Post by hef19898 »

watwut wrote: post #274
hef19898 wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure where I compared the NATO expansion, a peaceful one, to Russia's invasions of Georgia and Ukraine. All I'm saying is that Russia, pretty much since German reunification, worried about NATO expansion to the East. And personally, I get that. After all, NATO and the USSR (along the Warsaw Pact) used to be sworn enemies for decades by then. This escalation started decades ago, and was totally foreseeable. And ye…

> After all, NATO and the USSR (along the Warsaw Pact) used to be sworn enemies for decades by then. USSR was literally Russia + occupied countries. Saying it is understandable is like saying it would be understandable for Germany to attack Poland and France again, because Third Reich went that far too.

Part of the reason why the German (traditionally Prussian) military elite supported the Nazis was exactly that, the loss of previously Prussian (or German) territory. And not territory that was invaded but couldn't be held. Again, I am not defending Putin or Russia here.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#353

Post by simonh »

oblio wrote: post #119
simonh wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 2009 Ukraine was under the control of Yanukovych, a Russian stooge installed through repression and rigged elections. He was Putin’s pawn and his posturing against NATO or Romania can hardly be used as criticism of the current Ukrainian government or the will of the Ukrainian people. You’re implying that Ukraine didn’t try to make any friends before the 2014 Russian invasion of Crimea. In fact it was Ukraines impr…

It doesn't matter. Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, etc. turned around in 1991. Ukraine didn't. Its people didn't want it. Downvote all you want, that's just fact.

Even if you are right about that, right now it doesn’t matter. I don’t think it’s possible to argue now that the Ukrainian people are pro Russian or anti EU and NATO. It’s entirely legitimate if they changed their mind about Russia given what’s happened since 2014. After all Ukraine is a big country and ‘they’ have a huge variety of opinions. The democratic will of the people now is what matters, and whether the rest of the world is prepared to defend their right to self determination.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#354

Post by phillc73 »

AniseAbyss wrote: post #301
rjzzleep wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Makes me wonder why the west thought the third time would be the charm in this case Ignorance and arrogance, but mostly arrogance.

Yeah no. I'm sorry for Ukraine but how many people are willing to die over it? War was never on the table and Putin knew it so he acted.

> I'm sorry for Ukraine but how many people are willing to die over it?

Millions of Ukrainians. That is going to be the real tragedy.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#355

Post by arez »

xroche wrote: post #303
jl6 wrote: post #121

https://oec.world/en/profile/country/rus Russia’s exports are >50% oil and gas products. The biggest retaliation the West can make right now is a commitment to a rapid exit at unprecedented speed from the oil economy, in favor of renewables.

> The biggest retaliation the West can make right now is a commitment to a rapid exit at unprecedented speed from the oil economy, in favor of renewables. You can't exit from the oil economy with renewable such as wind or solar due to their non-predictability. If you want to stop importing Russian gaz, you need nuclear energy.

so let's build some nuclear power plants, they should be done in 20yrs is that fast enough?

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#356

Post by PedroBatista »

kubav wrote: post #250
nomercy400 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like Russia cares. They have a growing, energy-hungering neighbor (China) buying their gas in the east, and a Europe committed to reduce their gas and oil usage in the next 10 years in the west.

I doubt that China would pay the same price. They will use it to get discount.

They already have, Putin’s gas deals with China are ruinous for Russia, they even managed to sell it at a loss half the time. What a mastermind that guy is.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#357

Post by londons_explore »

mopsi wrote: post #305
vetinari wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In order to use nukes effectively, you need to have second strike capabilities. You know, the 'M' in 'MAD'. Ukraine in NATO means US nukes on Russia border, tipping the balance. It would be similar to Russia placing their bases and weapons into Canada or Mexico.

> Ukraine in NATO means US nukes on Russia border, tipping the balance. No, it does not. A number of Eastern European countries are in NATO and none of them have American nuclear weapons. Where does this silly idea come that after joining NATO, American missiles somehow appear in the new member? Modern-day NATO is a cooperation platform for joint exercises etc, not some missile club that starts delivering ICBMs every…

But when a country has joined NATO, it can later declare it will host nuclear weapons loaned from other NATO countries.

Russia is powerless to stop this, since any attack on a NATO country would likely trigger a counterattack.

Hence, instead, Russia must prevent these countries joining if they want to ensure no nukes on their border.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#358

Post by tut-urut-utut »

Let's hope that everyone will just accept facts as they are and not further escalate. What Estonia is doing here is just that, an escalation. Instead of implementing the Minsk agreement, Ukraine decided to pursue a military solution of “cleaning” Donetsk region. Now they have a military solution.

Now it's time for diplomacy. Just accept the fact that the majority of Donetsk and Lugansk want to be an independent state and negotiate the borders in peace, instead of trying to further escalate.

There was already a precedent in Kosovo, where one-sidedly proclaimed independence was accepted, and a sovereign country that tried to prevent it was crushed by NATO military until they had to accept “the new reality”.

And now let someone tell me what is the difference between Ukraine-Donbas-Russia and Serbia-Kosovo-NATO situation? Except the facts that NATO now sides with the sovereign state instead with the separatists, and that Russia is an enemy of NATO.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#359

Post by moonchrome »

afroboy wrote: post #340
xroche wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The biggest retaliation the West can make right now is a commitment to a rapid exit at unprecedented speed from the oil economy, in favor of renewables. You can't exit from the oil economy with renewable such as wind or solar due to their non-predictability. If you want to stop importing Russian gaz, you need nuclear energy.

> you need nuclear energy. Don't forget they are easy targets when war get declared.

I'm guessing if anyone is going to start nuclear war then we're going back to stone age with or without nuclear power plants.

Re: Estonia, allies to trigger NATO Article 4

#360

Post by mort96 »

CodeArtisan wrote: post #257
gambiting wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> NATO and especially USA should have responded by sending two thousands soldiers to Kiev And when those American soldiers are killed by Russian missiles, do you then declare full on war on Russia, and we basically all die? Because like....there is no other good option out of this you know. By placing American(or NATO) troops and assets in the harms way, you need to be prepared for what you are going to do if those…

I am not a native English speaker and may have badly expressed myself. I am not urging the "west" or "allieds" to intervene nor i am condemning them for not to. But if they were serious about stopping Putin, they would have sent troops weeks before the invasion. When Joseph Biden went everyday on television to warn that the invasion was imminent and that usa will not send troops but instead establish more economic sa…

I don't understand. You're not urging the "west" or "allies" to intervene, but you want them to have sent troops to fight russian troops? In what world isn't that "intervening"?
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