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App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

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Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#351

Post by Apocryphon »

belated_tech wrote: post #348

I can already see makers of mainstream apps in China (e.g., WeChat, TikTok, Alibaba, etc) building more feature-rich versions of their apps outside AppStore and unnecessarily mandating contacts and location permissions, while putting a zombie version on AppStore. (This is already the case for Android/Google Play)

The Chinese tech giants probably have the most motivation and capability to develop their own independent third party app stores, moreso than Facebook or Amazon imo. That said, I'm not sure if WeChat or Alibaba would be as interested as one would think- they've invested years and years of work into mini programs or lite app within their own apps themselves, building app stores would be undoing a lot of that work at worst, making it redundant as best.

https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/29/alibaba-alipay-mini-progra...

Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#352

Post by toast0 »

nerdjon wrote: post #69

As long as this does not cause an exodus from the App Store and I am forced to start paying for apps directly, I am fine with this. But a strong benefit to the App Store for me is being able to manage and cancel my subscriptions from a central place. No going through 5 screens, no being forced to call, no any of that crap. I can already see apps refusing to carry through the App Store so they can control more, and I…

Having worked on an app that took payments (although I only ever personally did work adjacent to the payments), customers from the Apple App Store seemed to be more likely to have the ability to make payments; they were likely to have a working payment method on file with Apple. We were a low priced subscription though, 30% seems like a lot, but straight credit card, card not present processing isn't much better when you add the fixed fee to the discount rate. It's better if you can get a micropayments rate, but we couldn't. Lower friction often means more payments, so we would certainly not leave platform app stores to get more control of payment (although, the direct downloaded apps might include more payment methods)

Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#353

Post by Apocryphon »

toast0 wrote: post #349
Apocryphon wrote: post #165

I find the FUD against third party app stores on iOS to be simultaneously crediting Apple with providing immense amounts of security in its App Store, and believing that it would be incredibly helpless without sole control through its App Store. That's very contradictory, both in ignoring the many, many vulnerabilities and scams that have proliferated on the App Store through the years (not to mention other negative…

> Furthermore, because Apple still has ultimate control of its operating system, it can design a careful flow to enable the use of third party app stores and side loading. It can hide it deep in Settings behind multitudes of "are you sure?" windows and security checks. It can coax users not to relinquish protections. If they make the flow add package signers (or maybe a packagename,signer tuple), that would both be m…

Exactly. There's a lot of potential UX flows available that could protect user security even when it comes to third party stores, and the law does not restrict Apple's ability to impose such safety restrictions.

Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#354

Post by summerlight »

merrywhether wrote: post #346
summerlight wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see 6 different competing stores on Android. As platform holders, Apple and Google will keep massive competitive advantages against other stores and I'm 100% sure that >95% of users outside of China will only use either App Store/Play Store.

At least in this hypothetical, that’s at least partly because Google owns the primary store on Android. It’s easy to envision them making Google Play for iOS and moving all of their apps exclusively into that and generating quite the beachhead while enabling them to increase their tracking capabilities and gathering more data. Especially if they exclusively release a true build of Chrome (everyone’s favorite monocult…

That's one possibility but Google and Apple effectively made a peace treaty to maintain their duopoly status. I would expect them to keep the status against other uprising competitors rather than breaching each other's territory.

Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#355

Post by toast0 »

tomjen3 wrote: post #329
Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ever heard of messaging apps? The kind you want to beep when somebody sends you a message? Currently you have 2 ways of providing this to your users: run the app in the background, maintaining a persistent connection to the server, or via push notifications, where an app is woken from disabled state and displays a message. And background processes are killed off on iOS in less than 15 seconds (the documentation state…

Messaging apps are a good example of when not to do notifications. Why should my day be interrupted because some random contact sends me some information? I don’t have email set to interrupt me, why should chat?

Push notifications don't mean only user visible notifications (or certainly don't mean a sound or haptic notification is required). It's nice for the app to get notified so it can download the message, so it's ready when you next want to look at messages.

Of course, worst of both is interruption notifications where you see part of the message, tap to read the whole thing and then get to wait for the thing to load.

Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#356

Post by Apocryphon »

merrywhether wrote: post #346
summerlight wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see 6 different competing stores on Android. As platform holders, Apple and Google will keep massive competitive advantages against other stores and I'm 100% sure that >95% of users outside of China will only use either App Store/Play Store.

At least in this hypothetical, that’s at least partly because Google owns the primary store on Android. It’s easy to envision them making Google Play for iOS and moving all of their apps exclusively into that and generating quite the beachhead while enabling them to increase their tracking capabilities and gathering more data. Especially if they exclusively release a true build of Chrome (everyone’s favorite monocult…

What benefit would Google Play on iOS provide for the user?

My theory is that for the major non-gaming companies- Google, Meta, and Amazon- building their own third party app store on iOS is not in their interest. They would essentially be carving out a ghetto for their own apps. Even if the law mandated Apple accept third party apps, Apple can still control that experience. And that experience will inherently involve friction. There will be friction to enable third party app stores. There will be friction to sign up for said stores, add payment information, and deal with yet another membership. Users would rather use mobile web sites before they have to jump through hurdles to install an app from a third party app store. There will be a public backlash against these companies for hoarding their apps in third party stores.

I think if they do introduce third party app stores, they won't take crucial apps- Google Maps, Facebook, Instagram, etc.- off of the Apple App Store. They stand to lose out too much by risking being dependent on their own new, untested third party app stores. And they would suffer a lot of heat from angry users for forcing them to sign up for and then manage yet another account.

Besides, these companies' apps aren't exactly the new hotness that inspire organic migration, unlike say TikTok. Imagine: users muddling through the Google Play Store for iOS® to get their Chrome, Google Maps, YouTube, and Gmail/G-Suite apps, and what else? The Google search app? The umpteenth Google instant messenger app? What would Amazon stand to benefit by duplicating their Kindle-oriented third party Android app store on iOS? Offer their Kindle reading app, the Amazon storefront app, and Audible? Does Zuckerberg really want to reenact the Facebook Home fiasco? Most of the time when these giants try to play in the others' home court, they tend to stumble pretty badly.

Gaming companies such as Epic, Valve, EA, UbiSoft, and now Microsoft-Acclaim-Blizzard might have a great chance at fostering third party app stores, given their unique content and gamers being accustomed to having to deal with multiple platforms with exclusive content. And er, a greater willingness to ignore user outcry over closed platform shenanigans.

Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#357

Post by nprateem »

Apocryphon wrote: post #165

I find the FUD against third party app stores on iOS to be simultaneously crediting Apple with providing immense amounts of security in its App Store, and believing that it would be incredibly helpless without sole control through its App Store. That's very contradictory, both in ignoring the many, many vulnerabilities and scams that have proliferated on the App Store through the years (not to mention other negative…

Well it's a bullshit claim to justify them taking 30%. Not sure why you've taken it seriously...

Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#358

Post by toast0 »

post_break wrote: post #111
roughly wrote: post #97

If anyone actually thinks we’re going to be in an objectively better spot in 2 years because of this bill, I encourage you to take a real good look around at the actual world we actually live in. Things I guarantee you will see because of this: 1. You will have six different app stores on your phone. The Apple one, the Facebook one, the Google one, the Epic one, and at least two more, probably one from Disney and one…

Where are the 6 app store apps for android. Where are the app stores for Mac and PC? I can buy games for my PC from Steam, direct, green man gaming, etc etc. I can install apps that do things Apple thinks I shouldn't. The idea that having a choice of where I buy an app is a bad thing boggles my mind just because one goes in my pocket and the other sits on a desk. This fear mongering has to stop. Don't want to sideloa…

Amazon has an android app store, there's the f-droid one, all the companies selling android phones in china have their own, I think. Samsung has/had something, IIRC (maybe that was just for Gear VR though). Not a huge reason to have 6 on one phone though.

On PC, there's Microsoft's store. Amazon sells software downloads online, and I don't think they're the only ones. Lots of game stores of course. You can also buy software in actual stores, although that's less common, and sometimes it's just a big box with a download code.

But yeah, your take on sideloading seems reasonable. You don't need to do it. I ran a windows phone for years, it's fine to not have apps (and it's less fine to not have a good browser, but if Safari lingers enough, it'd be nice if you could sideload something else)

Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#359

Post by Gareth321 »

clusterfish wrote: post #122
nerdjon wrote: post #69

As long as this does not cause an exodus from the App Store and I am forced to start paying for apps directly, I am fine with this. But a strong benefit to the App Store for me is being able to manage and cancel my subscriptions from a central place. No going through 5 screens, no being forced to call, no any of that crap. I can already see apps refusing to carry through the App Store so they can control more, and I…

Pretty much all Apple has to do to keep apps in App Store in the face of competition is drop their fees to less than 10% for all apps and drop bullshit like "you can't even link to your website if it lets users pay from there", and almost everyone except the most brazen will stay on App Store. We'll see what actually happens but I personally I doubt that Apple values user experience more than it values gouging develo…

>Pretty much all Apple has to do to keep apps in App Store in the face of competition is drop their fees to less than 10% for all apps and drop bullshit like "you can't even link to your website if it lets users pay from there", and almost everyone except the most brazen will stay on App Store.

Exactly. Apple would have to actually... compete. I suppose I can understand why this fills them with dread, but they have a clear path to retaining developers: compete!

Re: App store bill sails out of Senate Judiciary Committee

#360

Post by michaelmrose »

javajosh wrote: post #82
nerdjon wrote: post #69

As long as this does not cause an exodus from the App Store and I am forced to start paying for apps directly, I am fine with this. But a strong benefit to the App Store for me is being able to manage and cancel my subscriptions from a central place. No going through 5 screens, no being forced to call, no any of that crap. I can already see apps refusing to carry through the App Store so they can control more, and I…

You are in luck! Another way to manage subscriptions client side is to use PayPal. In the same way you have control over all your subscriptions in one place, and can cancel without the interference of the counterparty - a great benefit indeed. And paypal can work with anything, any entity that has a PayPal account. PP is, of course, not without its own horror stories, however a lot of that is around p2p selling-gone-…

Paypay is great when everything has gone right but everything about their support and dispute resolution system is shockingly incompetent. Going from everything going well to something has gone wrong is like driving through Mayberry and crossing a bridge to find yourself in Kafkaesque post apocalyptic landscape devoid of sanity and reason.

You'd be smarter to trust your money to drug dealers or your put it in a sack and have your 5 year old cousin watch it real close.

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