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Israel police uses NSO’s Pegasus to spy on citizens

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Re: Israel police uses NSO’s Pegasus to spy on citizens

#351

Post by eli_gottlieb »

tsimionescu wrote: post #345
eli_gottlieb wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing a factor: 3) The Palestinians, both officially and according to opinion polls, want the land inside the Green Line, and refuse to end their "irregular militancy" (aka: war but you want to pretend their hands are clean) until they get it. This issue becomes more urgent after Israel withdrew all its forces and civilians unilaterally from Gaza in 2005, with a plan to do the same in the West Bank, and gets…

Israel maintains control of all Palestinian airspace and the Gaza coast. Israel maintains the right to march its military or police inside the West Bank or Gaza or to bomb them without considering this an act of war. They have regularly arrested Palestinian elected officials. They control all resources entering Gaza and the West Bank, particularly water, food and construction materials, and punish people by reducing…

>Israel maintains the right to march its military or police inside the West Bank or Gaza or to bomb them without considering this an act of war.

No we don't. These are acts of war. We're at war with Palestine.

>The withdrawal from Gaza was also not some gesture of autonomy towards Palestine as you make it out to be.

I didn't say anything about motives. I said we took our soldiers and settlers out of Gaza. That is a material fact.

>Would you not say that China was occupying Taiwan, or at least doing something very very close to it?

I would say that China was blockading or besieging Taiwan, with which it was at war, and would apply the same terms for Israel's war against Gaza.

>It's also important to note that Israel itself does not recognize Palestine as a state, so it is very hard to see by what measure Israel could claim that it is at war with Palestine.

This is metaphysical special pleading.

Re: Israel police uses NSO’s Pegasus to spy on citizens

#352

Post by weatherlite »

smolder wrote: post #349
weatherlite wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh yeah its so hard to criticize Israel, never read something bad about Israel. It's all praise and compliments in the media. Did you know most religious Jews around the world are afraid to walk with religious clothes because they're afraid to get beat up? They don't wanna be called child killers or dirty jews or something of that sort. This is happening now even in very woke cities like NY or London.

How does your (dubious) claim that most jews live in such fear have anything to do with how criticism of Israel is treated? You're not really contradicting GP's claim, and to back it up, I've encountered what seem to be bad faith arguments in defense of Israel (including flavors A and B) in probably every public-facing online discussion of it. I think the only way to be sure you're having an honest conversation about…

> How does your (dubious) claim that most jews live in such fear

There are many research groups that confirmed the feeling of fear by Jews in Europe and more recently in the U.S as well, there is nothing dubious about what I said. It's become very common for Jews to not leave the house with any Jewish identity (skullcaps for instance) in Germany, France, Netherlands and now in the U.S as well. This is also confirmed by a substantial increase in antisemitic incidents throughout the Western world. In fact only a few days ago there was one in Texas that luckily didn't end in deaths.

https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/half-of-jewish-c...

https://www.ajc.org/news/top-3-takeaways-from-ajcs-survey-on...

https://fra.europa.eu/sites/default/files/fra_uploads/fra-20...

Honestly it feels ridiculous to keep adding links here, this is so well researched and written about I think it's beyond debate. Now does what I say here apply to all Jews equally? Obviously if you are non religious and wear no identifying clothes, and never mention your judaism, you will be exposed to less anti semitism (if any). But that's not saying there is no problem is it?

Re: Israel police uses NSO’s Pegasus to spy on citizens

#353

Post by yonixw »

tsimionescu wrote: post #342
yonixw wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, Egypt being complicit in depriving Gaza of resources (to a MUCH lesser extent than Israel, to be fair) does in no way prove that Hamas is the problem, Yeah it does... Oh, how much it does...

Ok, then why do you think the people of Gaza have been consistently voting for Hamas in free elections?

No post body was provided.

Re: Israel police uses NSO’s Pegasus to spy on citizens

#354

Post by nayaketo »

wnoise wrote: post #313
nayaketo wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many Arab nations allow Jews that migrated to Israel back to their countries? Or are Arabs allowed exclusionary policies and only Israel has to be different to not be labelled as "apartheid" by the woke ones?

"Those guys are bad too" is not a rebuttal. Yes, they are. So?

Where are the mountains of UN resolutions against those nations then?

Re: Israel police uses NSO’s Pegasus to spy on citizens

#355

Post by nayaketo »

wnoise wrote: post #313
nayaketo wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many Arab nations allow Jews that migrated to Israel back to their countries? Or are Arabs allowed exclusionary policies and only Israel has to be different to not be labelled as "apartheid" by the woke ones?

"Those guys are bad too" is not a rebuttal. Yes, they are. So?

So, why don't they get called 'apartheid'?

Re: Israel police uses NSO’s Pegasus to spy on citizens

#356

Post by tsimionescu »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #351
tsimionescu wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel maintains control of all Palestinian airspace and the Gaza coast. Israel maintains the right to march its military or police inside the West Bank or Gaza or to bomb them without considering this an act of war. They have regularly arrested Palestinian elected officials. They control all resources entering Gaza and the West Bank, particularly water, food and construction materials, and punish people by reducing…

>Israel maintains the right to march its military or police inside the West Bank or Gaza or to bomb them without considering this an act of war. No we don't. These are acts of war. We're at war with Palestine. >The withdrawal from Gaza was also not some gesture of autonomy towards Palestine as you make it out to be. I didn't say anything about motives. I said we took our soldiers and settlers out of Gaza. That is a m…

> No we don't. These are acts of war. We're at war with Palestine.

You keep insisting on this historical revisionism. When did this war start? Between which two states is it happening? When did the declaration of war happen? At most, you can call this is a civil war, since it is taking place entirely on Israel's territory (according to Israel's own definition!).

The more historically correct way to look at it is that there is a resistance movement fighting against Israel's occupation. This is the simple, undeniable historical truth.

Israel is, undeniably, the original aggressor against the people of Gaza and the West Bank, though over the years there have been many heinous acts committed by all parties.

Re: Israel police uses NSO’s Pegasus to spy on citizens

#357

Post by tsimionescu »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #330
tsimionescu wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the Allies had started bombing German civilian targets more as they were gaining an upper hand, or even had they not subsided in their bombing of civilian targets, then yes, it would be the same, and it would not be excusable. When fighting against a dirty enemy, it is mostly acceptable to be dirty in turn. But as your enemy is close to defeat and is losing any power to harm you, you're supposed to stop the dirty…

>But as your enemy is close to defeat and is losing any power to harm you, you're supposed to stop the dirty tactics that were necessary and (somewhat) justified earlier. That is: 1) Not how international law actually works, 2) Not how anyone actually behaved in World War II, 3) Not remotely applicable before an official surrender is issued . The law says that you have to call off military action and start releasing…

> once their government surrenders

That's ok then, as the government of Gaza was created by Israel's own accord - so at least in 2005, we can both agree that there could have been no state of war between occupied Gaza and Israel. Then, in 2006 the Israeli backed government held free elections, in which the people of Gaza voted for Hamas. The immediate result, before Hamas had even formed a government (but after someone kidnapped 1 Israeli soldier), was intense hostility from Israel, bombing civilian infrastructure (a war crime, if indeed there is a war), arresting elected Hamas officials, denying Hamas members transit between Gaza and the West Bank, and other acts.

So, if you really want to claim there is an actual war, then this war can only be the one started in 2006 by Israel in a surprise attack in retaliation for the democratic vote of the people of Gaza. The war started then with a surprise attack and immediately resorting to war crimes by Israel (Gaza would follow suit with their own attack on Israeli civilians).

Re: Israel police uses NSO’s Pegasus to spy on citizens

#358

Post by octoberfranklin »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #340
anm89 wrote: post #144

It's interesting to me why spying on citizens is like this foundational goal of all modern nation states. I get why a state might want to do this but its not clear to me why it seems to be the only stable path for modern democracies.

Governments enjoy having power and control over their subjects. The only reason they didn't do this before is the technology didn't exist in previous centuries. The use of spies was more or less limited to high value targets in times of war. It's not like they could have assigned a spy to every citizen in the country. Things are different now. Espionage is now automatic and large scale, there's no longer any practica…

> It's not like they could have assigned a spy to every citizen in the country.

The East German Stasi came pretty close.

Re: Israel police uses NSO’s Pegasus to spy on citizens

#359

Post by hkt »

hunterb123 wrote: post #337
hkt wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any international sources on this? I'm a little sceptical of the partisan angle of those posts and note they're essentially from a rival Israeli political outlook. I'm open to the idea that B'Tselem are unreliable, but highly politicised criticisms like those aren't really persuasive.

> Do you have any international sources on this? Sources on what? What did you disagree with? > I'm open to the idea that B'Tselem are unreliable You linked an article from organization B'Tselem claiming Israel is an Apartheid state. I dont like the "angle of their post" to use your words. > note they're essentially from a rival Israeli political outlook Yes, my that's my point. B'Tselem is a political organization,…

I can see I've given some offence and would like to reiterate that's not my intention. I'd continue asking questions as I remain fairly curious, but will pick another time and place. Thank you for responding, and again, apologies for any offence caused.

Re: Israel police uses NSO’s Pegasus to spy on citizens

#360

Post by [deleted] »

yonixw wrote: post #339
tsimionescu wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's the first sentence. Reading more of the article, here is the "Naval Blockade" section: > The Israeli Navy enforces a maritime blockade of the Port of Gaza and the coastline. and the "Control of Gazan airspace" section: > The Oslo Accords interim peace agreements expressly give Israel security control over Gazan airspace and coastal waters. Also, Egypt being complicit in depriving Gaza of resources (to a M…

> Also, Egypt being complicit in depriving Gaza of resources (to a MUCH lesser extent than Israel, to be fair) does in no way prove that Hamas is the problem, Yeah it does... Oh, how much it does...

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