California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide • Hacker News Board

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#351

Post by holonomically » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 1:06 AM UTC

thereisnospork wrote: post #338

holonomically wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how that follows.

everyone is a set which includes anyone. If all (e.g.) 7th graders must have the same knowledge of math, that knowledge of math cannot exceed the knowledge attainable by the dumbest (read: any) 7th grader. This is tautologically true.

Yes, thanks. That clears it up. You're right. We must teach no one anything otherwise there would be some people that wouldn't be able to understand. That was exactly what I was thinking and your example helped me understand. What you were saying was clearly tautological and I just didn't have the logical training to understand it.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#352

Post by chrisseaton » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 1:07 AM UTC

mlyle wrote: post #348

chrisseaton wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really get how you can be a mathematics teacher and not know enough to be able to teach calculus? Like surely you've done calculus yourself?

I think a few years ago I could have written a comment like this, but now I've been a teacher for a couple of years now. It is hard to teach something. Being able to do it is isn't anywhere near the level of expertise needed to: * Do it up on a board at a moderately quick but consistent cadence, with engagement and narrating the whole part through. * Not be taken off track by inevitable distractions. * Understand the…

I didn't realise teachers went under some kind of assessment to teach particular parts of their subjects.

In the UK a mathematics teacher is just a mathematics teacher. They all have to teach calculus because that's part of the curriculum. If you couldn't teach calculus then you couldn't be a mathematics teacher.

(That's not a boast - we're poorer and less effective at maths than you are.)

What do you do if you're a mathematics teacher but can't do the calculus part? Handover to someone else for just that part of the year? Must be a bit professionally embarrassing?

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#353

Post by brewdad » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 1:07 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #260

readams wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gifted programs aren't the same thing as tracking kids into more advanced math classes. A gifted program is where you take some kids aside and teach them some random extra stuff, at the end of the day they're still in the regular classes with the other kids also and don't really have a chance to go any faster.

> Gifted programs aren't the same thing as tracking kids into more advanced math classes In elementary school gifted programs are often tracking people into advanced math, reading, and other subjects all at once. Plus teaching them extra stuff. At higher grades, if it exists at all, its often tracking them into a different school that has both more advanced and more diverse classes. > A gifted program is where you ta…

> A gifted program is where you take some kids aside and teach them some random extra stuff, at the end of the day they're still in the regular classes with the other kids also and don't really have a chance to go any faster.

My kid's school did exactly this for "gifted" elementary school kids. What saved him was being in split grade classes in 2nd and 3rd grades where he could move to the older student's side of the room for math and reading instruction. Eventually, he skipped 4th grade altogether and ended up with the peer group he was already spending much of his day with.

In middle school, the gifted kids got to go on one special field trip each year. By HS, there was a gifted program in name only. We paid someone to run the "gifted" program but I have no idea what she actually did. She wasn't even available to assist in college apps and there weren't any special programs that I ever saw. My kid, and his most motivated peers, all ended up at very good universities in spite of the lack of support from the school.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#354

Post by gpm » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 1:08 AM UTC

Aerroon wrote: post #119

fsn4dN69ey wrote: post #28

My parents introduced it to me at home around 4th-5th grade? So I was ~9-10yo? Not sure why delaying it will help, if anything the earlier the better. Everything I hear about "equity in education" seems to be making it worse, but more equally I guess. Like another poster already mentioned, reminds me of the Harrison Bergeron story by Vonnegut - seems like we are rapidly approaching that point. http://www.tnellen.com/…

To be fair, the basics of algebra are already taught in first grade (or whenever you learn arithmetic). Kids at that age won't have questions such as x + 3 = 7 Instead, they will get questions such as __ + 3 = 7 They might not formally learn it, but they'll learn the patterns that they will eventually apply in algebra.

And if we were any good at teaching math we would just naturally go with it from there, "algebra" wouldn't even be a subject, it would just be something you do by default as teachers first replaced _ with x (hopefully before you even got too used to _), and then started making the equations gradually more complex.

"Solving linear equations with multiple variables", "solving quadratic equations", "solving polynomials", etc. Those are things you really need to teach as a distinct concept. Algebra is just the language, introduced in a pedagogically sound way you wouldn't even realize you were learning it.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#355

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 1:08 AM UTC

mixmastamyk wrote: post #329

dragonwriter wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Students are required to “show their work” in standardized, prescribed ways" is a manifestation of white supremacy? “White supremacy” is an accurate but excessively polarizing term; “cultural favoritism in favor of status quo elites, whose preferences and cultural practices are encoded in the prescribed methods of demonstration” would perhaps both be less inflammatory and easier to see the connections between the…

These kind of anti-solutions backfire. Say there's a real problem, the police are killing people. Instead of solving that... well few of us have any power over that, so instead we resort to changing things we do have power over. Like… watering down math classes and pretending that is even the thousandth thing on the list of solutions that should be tackled first as a response. It's so far down the list (and has bette…

> These kind of anti-solutions backfire.

Its not an anti-solution, and you provide neither evidence or reasoning to support your claim that it is part of a class of things that backfires.

> Say there's a real problem, the police are killing people

That is a real problem. Education is done in a culturally biased manner which perpetuates the disadvantage or marginalized groups is also a real problem. As is the fact that education is done by outdated methods which underserve even the best served, on top of the inequities. The former one doesn't negate the latter two.

> Like… watering down math classes

This is not about “watering down” math classes, but the opposite; it is about applying evidence to improve the quality and equity of mathematical instructions.

I don't except that my tax dollars should be wasted on broken on biased math just because we haven't fixed racist violence by police.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#356

Post by giantg2 » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 1:08 AM UTC

threatofrain wrote: post #317

giantg2 wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question in my mind is, how useful is calculus in most people's lives?

Not very useful, since most people don't work in technical professions. But if you want to pursue further technical studies, then that's a different ballgame. To me, the question isn't whether Calculus will be useful to somebody who intends to study nursing, but rather whether the doorways to other venues will be made that much narrower, or closed altogether. Under Equitable Math, all children must be at the same lev…

"Under Equitable Math, all children must be at the same level, whether they wish to pursue nursing or engineering."

Should we be striving for equitable or equality?

"Children and their families ought to have a choice, including the choice to march forward toward their individual academic ambition and ability"

This doesn't sound equitable.

Do nurses actually use calculus?

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#357

Post by mlyle » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 1:10 AM UTC

jcranmer wrote: post #336

chrisseaton wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really get how you can be a mathematics teacher and not know enough to be able to teach calculus? Like surely you've done calculus yourself?

Just because you know it doesn't mean you have the pedagogical skills to help somebody else know it. By way of example, I am more than competent at introductory computer science yet I am wholly incompetent at teaching it--were a student to need help with something that basic in CS, I wouldn't know how to go about helping them understand, since I don't understand why they might not be understanding something.

This past trimester I taught a Computer Organization & Design class to middle school students for the first time, with curriculum that I developed.

Observations:

* Wow-- the brighter half of MS students can do nearly as well as bright undergraduates on this material if you go a little slower and make some allowances for attention span. The neuroplasticity, recent memory of learning arithmetic, and lack of fear of the material really helps.

* Holy crap-- I had no idea before trying to teach this how much number theory that I take for granted. Like, I forgot to cover how many possibilities there are for n-digit numbers in different bases and some early lessons on number systems took this for granted. Figuring out what you need to cover, and how, for something to make sense later is hard.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#358

Post by thaumasiotes » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 1:10 AM UTC

throwvirtever wrote: post #274

vntx wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. A disgrace for education but a win for educational communism. It’s a good thing the US can import talent because California’s students are being trained to be cognitively lazy. How will these children fare in a society that is getting more technologically advanced, dynamic and complex by the day without the problem solving tools to handle it? I can’t wait to find out.

> A disgrace for education but a win for educational communism. I was under the impression that (actual) communist educational systems were geared predominantly toward the most advanced students, rather than the other way around. Cranking out prizewinning physicists, mathematicians, and chess grand-masters at a somewhat greater than expected rate.

"Educational communism" in that it seeks to eliminate inequality (in education) by reducing everyone to zero, just as communism sought to eliminate inequality (in wealth) by reducing everyone to zero.

Not "educational communism" in the sense of educational systems modeled on those of communist countries.

The analogy is from "if I can't afford a car, then nobody should be allowed to have a car" to "if I can't understand algebra, then nobody should be allowed to learn algebra".

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#359

Post by s1artibartfast » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 1:11 AM UTC

mixmastamyk wrote: post #329

dragonwriter wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Students are required to “show their work” in standardized, prescribed ways" is a manifestation of white supremacy? “White supremacy” is an accurate but excessively polarizing term; “cultural favoritism in favor of status quo elites, whose preferences and cultural practices are encoded in the prescribed methods of demonstration” would perhaps both be less inflammatory and easier to see the connections between the…

These kind of anti-solutions backfire. Say there's a real problem, the police are killing people. Instead of solving that... well few of us have any power over that, so instead we resort to changing things we do have power over. Like… watering down math classes and pretending that is even the thousandth thing on the list of solutions that should be tackled first as a response. It's so far down the list (and has bette…

When your sole metric is equality, it is easier to hold all students back than address the issues causing a subset of of students to underperform.

It is most akin those who advocate for harsher penalties for white criminals to because penalties are disproportionately harsh for minorities.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#360

Post by mixmastamyk » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 1:12 AM UTC

spurgu wrote: post #251

moksly wrote: post #212

I’m Danish and not at all interested in the politics of it, but there can be a case for teaching algebra late. We do it in Denmark, because it’s the subject children have the hardest time learning, and having too many of them fail too early kills their interest in math. We still teach algebra in grade 7-9, but we’ve gone through the social experiments of teaching it at different ages, and have lost entire generations…

I would say practical reasons. How would you structure those lessons? You'd need a lot more resources to be able to tailor everyone's path like that. It would be great though. I loved going to school for the first 4 years when we were ~30 people in the whole school (spread over 1-4th graders) - the teachers were able to address individual needs. Then I went to fifth grade where were were 35 people in the class . It j…

Middle and high school already have separated classes, no?

I once took a computer-repair class at a local school district adult school. It was self paced, and despite being bored as hell during high school, I crushed the repair course at like 4x the normal speed. Because I could. There was literally no one to stop me.