Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops • Hacker News Board

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#351

Post by lazyasciiart » Fri, Nov 05, 2021, 10:19 PM UTC

teawrecks wrote: post #219

wonderwonder wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your parents already had access to the app, just in the form of a folder you were sent home with that had everything printed out. This is just a digitized version, its not the 2nd coming of the Gestapo. Also you need to think about this from the perspective of the parents, having kids in school mean you have to do things, you can either be informed ahead of time and do them in a leisurely manner or you can find out l…

It sounds like you may have had a very unorthodox childhood and may not realize it. No, my parents didn't have access to, or knowledge about my things. As soon as you entrust a child with a document, it is up to that child whether that document survives more than a few steps out of the classroom, let alone whether a parent ever knows about it. That is a very strong form of autonomy, important to a child's development…

I think their childhood sounds absolutely normal and you may be the unorthodox one.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#352

Post by balp » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 7:34 AM UTC

bjourne wrote: post #339

krageon wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you may be guilty of data breach. No, you may not in this case :) That is why people keep emphasising the way in which the data was published. This is Sweden, not the US. > the city didn't publish their information through an API Yes, they did. > and also explicitly stated that they did not want Christian's app to access their information If you cannot reasonably be said to have circumvented any technical measures…

> No, you may not in this case :) That is why people keep emphasising the way in which the data was published. This is Sweden, not the US. Here is the relevant paragraph: "För dataintrång döms den som olovligen bereder sig tillgång till en uppgift som är avsedd för automatisk behandling eller olovligen ändrar, utplånar, blockerar eller i register för in sådan uppgift" The requisites are: "olovligen", "bereder sig til…

They for sure intended to make an API, but also intended it only to be used between the two contractors involved in the application development. There was a requirement in the RFQ for the backend to have a well documented API. Almost all of the RFQ was about making an API. In this case the indended user e.g. the parrent is using the API to get the data they are supposed to get. Thou using a different webb-app than the intended one from the city. I have a hard time seeing how the parent by accessing the same data they are supposed to get are doing any crime. The police investigation came to the same comclusion, and the internal investigation at stockholm city also came to this comclusion. That the police cited stockholms internal investigations i think is a nice little detail here. Thou if the app would have given the parents access to data they ware not supposed to get over the API they situations might been an other. Now it's just the same information but persented in a user-friendlier way.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#353

Post by lbriner » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 10:42 AM UTC

I wonder why a department with a large budget manages to make something so terrible but I think I know the answer.

Every time I work with a bureaucracy, I realise there are a lot of people, many of whom are average at best but all want to make their mark on the product, have their say, cement their value to the organisation.

Whoever then has to build it produces something rubbish by definition, not because they are bad devs but because they have to do what they are told.

Sad really that when we have done so much work on making the development process super slick and agile, we haven't been able to formalise the interface between customer and suppliers to avoid conflicting requirements and inconsistent UX.

Unless someone has solved this but most of us don't know how?

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#354

Post by throwaway09223 » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 6:57 PM UTC

tofflos wrote: post #230

taylodl wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an interesting angle - the government published the data via an API and therefore the data is now public and so as a result these other laws you mention come into play. Fascinating! Please keep us posted as to how this progresses.

The act of publishing has little to do with it. Sweden is open by default and the government has to provide public access to official documents to anyone and everyone - including foreign nationals. > The principle of public access to official documents serves as a guarantee for transparency in the work of the Riksdag, the Government and the public authorities. The principle is set out in the Freedom of the Press Act,…

US law is similar. The federal government cannot hold copyright and absent specific opt-ins for national security and so on, all data is public.

States and cities are a bit trickier because of the weird way the constitution interacts with states, but things still tend towards open access.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#355

Post by pbhjpbhj » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 9:20 PM UTC

_carbyau_ wrote: post #291

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should leave them out on the hills to fend for themselves, feeding them will only make them weak! /s

You overdramatise the point, but yes! You feed the toddler. You pack and give food to the 5-10 year old. They feed themselves. You supervise the 10-teenageish to gather/pack their own food. After "teenageish" you do in fact leave them out on the hills to fend for themselves... ... and part of fending for yourself, is to know when to ask for help. But the terms of help is hopefully between two capable humans at that p…

> know how to dress on any given day is totally appropriate

No, 5year-olds can't [all] track the three different "special" outfit days in a week and know whether to take in the clothes or dress in them in the morning. Many five-year-olds don't know which day comes after which, and most don't have literary skills to write themselves a reminder or to log on to a computer calendar and check. They need parental help. I can tell you that some of us parents find it difficult to track these things and keep everything straight, too.

Teachers absolutely do ask children to do tasks they can't achieve on their own (eg. I guess maybe rich families might have all the stuff to do an impromptu craft project but if you need pipe-cleaners and black card to make a spider for Hallowe'en then you need an adult to shop for/with you). But parent-child cooperative projects lead to better outcomes and children feel more engaged when their parents take part with them.

In our house there's no space in our kitchen for each person to make their own sandwiches, and that would be super inefficient. But yes, teenagers could take turns making for everyone; that's not good for our family though.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#356

Post by GhettoComputers » Mon, Nov 08, 2021, 3:16 AM UTC

silicon2401 wrote: post #337

GhettoComputers wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you look at the history of Han Chinese, they called themselves many different names. >Among some southern Han Chinese varieties such as Cantonese, Hakka and Minnan, a different term exists – Tang Chinese (Chinese: 唐人; pinyin: Táng Rén, literally "the people of Tang"), derived from the later Tang dynasty, regarded as another zenith of Chinese civilization. >The term "Huaxia" was used by Confucius's contemporaries,…

I think we may agree on some level but be stuck on semantics. There is an ethnic group XYZ living in and historically originating from what is today China. This is documented and scientifically backed. This group's name is homonymous with a separate idea in everyday speech; let's call that other idea ABC. ABC is essentially the name of a nation, which as you know doesn't have to do with genetics. When I say Han, I'm…

If you classify "Han" like "black people", "Hispanics" "Asian/Pacific Islander", or "white people" I would agree that there are "Han Chinese".

I don't think its a very useful classification, but I do not think its stictly scientific, its more cultural since ethnicity is a social heuristic, classifying races isn't scientific but its has uses. If we classify it as a group of Y-haplotypes it can have a scientific basis, but its still classified by social norms. https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Y-chromosome-haplotype...

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#357

Post by krageon » Mon, Nov 08, 2021, 12:11 PM UTC

bjourne wrote: post #339

krageon wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you may be guilty of data breach. No, you may not in this case :) That is why people keep emphasising the way in which the data was published. This is Sweden, not the US. > the city didn't publish their information through an API Yes, they did. > and also explicitly stated that they did not want Christian's app to access their information If you cannot reasonably be said to have circumvented any technical measures…

> No, you may not in this case :) That is why people keep emphasising the way in which the data was published. This is Sweden, not the US. Here is the relevant paragraph: "För dataintrång döms den som olovligen bereder sig tillgång till en uppgift som är avsedd för automatisk behandling eller olovligen ändrar, utplånar, blockerar eller i register för in sådan uppgift" The requisites are: "olovligen", "bereder sig til…

> There are several precedents that show that circumventing technical measures is not required for data breach to have occurred.

Given that you know significantly more than me perhaps you could give me some examples. I'm always interested to see countries in which such jurisprudence is different from the norm, especially in Europe. Thanks :)