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Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#351

Post by necovek »

lazide wrote: post #227
H8crilA wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possession is a physical/real property of the universe. Ownership is a legal abstraction/construct.

Being allowed to possess something (instead of being drug off kicking and screaming by the cops) is also a societal/legal construct.

It is a societal/legal construct brough up from the historical experience (eg. if a caveman built himself a hammer, they possessed it as long as they took good care of it).

We've redefined what "taking good care of something" means for things you possess, and we made elaborate social/legal constructs to clearly define boundaries of possession.

But this is present even in the animal world, even when it comes to "property" (wolfs mark their territory, so do lions, bees go back to their own hives, etc).

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#352

Post by necovek »

erikerikson wrote: post #203
thesuitonym wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this really different than any other country? Any government (at least in uncontested territories) can come in and tell you to fuck off, and there's really very little you can do about it.

Quite the opposite. You ask the state to use their monopoly on legitimate use of force to enforce your rights in accordance to law. What you imply is a failed state. The state must maintain the legitimacy of that use to maintain consent of the people, that or it slides into far less prosperous configurations.

Kings and queens have been overthrown and replaced too, so I do not see any difference there either.

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#353

Post by aqsalose »

blitzar wrote: post #279
aqsalose wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In civilized countries, it requires a specific decree or order by some government body, possibly after appeals. Not just random clerk writing a line in a book when random stranger comes and tells they own a piece of land and are going to sell it.

> it requires a specific decree or order by some government body That person is a random clerk > possibly after appeals I can 100% gaurantee that this case goes to court (if it is not settled to the now previous owners satisfaction). I also suspect that the original owner will come out on top, by likely more than the 150k that their 'house' was worth.

Only thing I can think of is eminent domain. Here it using it requires either a specific decree by the national government (as in, the prime minister), zoning plan approved by the elected municipal government, or in some limited cases, apparently involving electric power lines, an agency. The owner is to be informed of the proceedings before they take effect.

The random clerk does not get to do write off your property belonging to someone else, unless your elected representative had a change voice an opinion in a proceedings where a clear public decision by the elected representatives to specifically take away someone's property was made.

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#354

Post by samueldamon »

> "I have read of a gentleman who owned a so fine house in London, and when he went for months of summer to Switzerland and lock up his house, some burglar came and broke window at back and got in. Then he went and made open the shutters in front and walk out and in through the door, before the very eyes of the police. Then he have an auction in that house, and advertise it, and put up big notice; and when the day come he sell off by a great auctioneer all the goods of that other man who own them. Then he go to a builder, and he sell him that house, making an agreement that he pull it down and take all away within a certain time. And your police and other authority help him all they can. And when that owner come back from his holiday in Switzerland he find only an empty hole where his house had been."

- Dracula, 1897.

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#355

Post by AmericanBlarney »

irrational wrote: post #8
AmericanBlarney wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems pretty questionable as to whether due diligence was done given the first indicator neighbors had of the sale was after the transaction occurred. At least in the U.S. it's typically pretty tough to miss that a house is up for sale - signage, open houses, realtors showing up to give tours. Curious how this buyer even connected with the seller.

I live in the USA, this year we both sold our previous home and purchased our new home without the use of signage, open houses, tours, realtors, etc. We found the house we bought and found the buyers of our old house through our network of friends. We filled out all the paperwork from forms we printed off online. The title company took care of everything after that. It was all done completely online until the very la…

Sure, but you've invalidated the argument with your own example - there was a personal link. In this case, it seems to have been a complete stranger given the"seller" was an imposter.

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#356

Post by AmericanBlarney »

michaelt wrote: post #62
AmericanBlarney wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems pretty questionable as to whether due diligence was done given the first indicator neighbors had of the sale was after the transaction occurred. At least in the U.S. it's typically pretty tough to miss that a house is up for sale - signage, open houses, realtors showing up to give tours. Curious how this buyer even connected with the seller.

In the UK there's no requirement that 'For Sale' signs be put up. Very few people look for a house to buy by driving around looking for such signs - online listings are what drive the traffic these days, and you can sell a house with nothing but online listings. Of course, most buyers will want to see the house themselves before making an offer, as estate agents are famously creative in their property descriptions. I…

Fair enough about the sign, but what about showing the property or a home inspection (which usually takes several hours)?

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#357

Post by jopsen »

iso1631 wrote: post #265
jopsen wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many national ID systems in the EU have a digital component. With two factor authentication. They are not perfect, but it raises the bar.

So if you lose your phone you can never get a replacement ID? Or is the 2FA not worth the paper it isn't printed on when it comes to replacements, and you're back to the same level of proof you need for a driving license or passport.

(A) If the app on my phone stops working because someone stole my ID, then I'll likely notice next time I try to use it.

(B) You have to compromise both password and 2FA.

(C) Walking into a government office certainly raises the barrier to stealing ID.

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#358

Post by stretchwithme »

funshed wrote: post #99
stretchwithme wrote: post #96

Talk about something that needs multifactor authentication.

UK does require you to prove your identity but the solicitor seems to have failed here with stolen identity. As the original owner did not update there details to another address.

Getting something in the mail is only imaginarily secure.

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#359

Post by mihaaly »

psd1 wrote: post #303
mihaaly wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is always nice being vigilant for all and every possible scam and fraud out there coming our ways, being ready and prepared for whatever comes from whatever direction and for whatever target of ours, going after every suspicious matters we encounter or believe we encounter, being suspitious against as much as possible preparing ourselves for all kinds that could happen out there, but shouldn't be required. If it i…

At what point in human evolution did we flip from hunter-vs-hunted on the savannah to sublime docility because we now have _the system_ to _ensure safety?_

probably at forming societies, protecting each other - and so ourselves - from harm.

Re: Man left shocked as his house is 'stolen'

#360

Post by Ichthypresbyter »

Causality1 wrote: post #70
pmyteh wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's right, I think. The property can be recovered from the fraudster, but not from an innocent subsequent purchaser. There is at least some form of compensation scheme by the Land Registry. And 'selling on behalf of someone who isn't the actual owner' certainly can found a liability claim on the solicitor.

That's wild. Is there any other case where someone gets to keep stolen property as long as they didn't know it was stolen? I have to say if I was in the victim's position, my reaction would probably land me in prison for longer than the fraudster.

There are many European countries where this is the case for movable property. For instance, there was the case of the Fiat factory worker who bought a painting in a railway lost property auction, which turned out to be a stolen Gauguin.
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