Leaving Google • Hacker News Board

Re: Leaving Google

#351

Post by drclau » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 2:58 PM UTC

capableweb wrote: post #207

lotsofpulp wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And scale is simply because greed. Is it possible that it is simply because of survival? The general theme of business I see is if you do not keep up with others, you will lose to your competitors. Especially in a winner take all business with network effects and low marginal costs like tech.

No, Google would easily survive if they focused on maintaing existing services and making the headcount stable instead of increasing. Most businesses in the world survive with their piece of the pie and remaining having the same profits or slightly lower/higher than previous years. You don't disappear over night, and no market is really a "winner takes it all", it's just what management wants you to believe so you fi…

> No, Google would easily survive if they focused on maintaing existing services and making the headcount stable instead of increasing.

No such thing. In capitalism you are either growing or dying. Stagnation means others will grow around you, and relative to them you are shrinking in the same market. Thus, stagnating == dying.

Re: Leaving Google

#352

Post by nostrebored » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 2:58 PM UTC

Jensson wrote: post #50

nostrebored wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that products at large tech companies are going to be lead by engineers who by and large do not talk to people or understand the cross functional relationships and strategies is absurd. This isn't a future engineers want either -- I hear complaints about meetings from nearly every engineer I know. The idea that you should have low level knowledge of the system you're working on and high level knowledge of al…

> lead by engineers who by and large do not talk to people Do you think the engineer who leads a 1000 man org is not talking to people? I talked to the engineer leading our 500 man org, he talked to a lot of people and wanted their input and tried to understand the whole to make decisions. He had technical expertise so he could talk to low level engineers as well, but also to business people etc.

Yes -- within engineering typically! That is a the role of a PE/Staff Eng.

Re: Leaving Google

#353

Post by sokoloff » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 3:04 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #305

caoilte wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could achieve good multiples by paying dividends. The question is whether they're wasting as much money trying to grow as they are saving by keeping their profits offshore (and not paying tax on them). I don't know, but at some point the answer may become obvious.

Owners do not want dividends. I do not want dividends from my tech stocks if I’m simply going to turn around and reinvest in them. That is just paying extra short term capital gains taxes when you do not have to.

Qualified dividends (which represent the vast majority of them) are taxed as long-term capital gains to avoid this concern.

Re: Leaving Google

#354

Post by sulam » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 3:08 PM UTC

saagarjha wrote: post #312

ashtonkem wrote: post #38

> Second, management was spread way too thin. My last manager had around 25 reports It would be rude to describe my anatomical response to having 25 reports, but suffice to say it wasn’t good. I generally consider 6-7 the ideal max, and 8-9 the “I’m dropping all the unimportant balls in order to keep juggling” line. 25 is so far beyond the pale I can’t imagine how any manager of managers’s worth their salary would le…

Due to various internal reorgs my manager currently has a number of reports approaching that number. It's mostly gone fine for now, because there are multiple teams under her that are mostly self-sufficient in deciding their product direction. We have a team lead who isn't a "manager" but is providing input on what we do and we go to her when we have problems or need administrative work done. It's not horrible.

Your manager’s manager should be working with her to help her address the issue, because it’s not sustainable. It may be okay for now, not disputing that at all, but what to you may look like relative calm is much more likely her giving her best imitation of a duck (calm on the surface, but paddling furiously).

For instance, has she had to reduce the frequency, duration, and/or quality of her 1:1s? I’m guessing the answer is “of course” and maybe some ameliorating fact like having more 1:1 time with the team lead. The “so what?” here is that 1:1s are how you head off problems before they get serious. So either the tech lead is picking up that slack and is your de facto manager or you’re simply coasting on the strength of past 1:1s, but inertia will only get you so far.

Also, this tech lead you mention is likely doing less actual technical work because they are picking up slack left by your manager not having enough time in the day. This might not be a problem right now, but the first question I would be asking in your manager’s shoes is: “is my TL happy? Is this sustainable for them?” The second would be something like “What long term technical objectives are being sacrificed to deal with this management issue?”

It’s often the case in the situation you’re describing that the TL is interested in moving into management, and this is a “try out” effectively. Personally I like to be open about situations like this, although there are valid arguments against that. In any event, I think most people would agree that it’s best do such “try outs” when the stakes are relatively low, and the TL can have an easy escape if they need it. The situation you’re describing doesn’t fit my definition of low risk, although ymmv — maybe conditions are such that this is a very temporary state and the machinery to fix it is already in motion.

Re: Leaving Google

#355

Post by esprehn » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 3:09 PM UTC

throwawaylinux wrote: post #261

TheRealNGenius wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, Timbit sent a public letter of resignation, and Google accepted. Nothing more nothing less.

Can a private company not accept a letter of resignation? Would that be a violation of the 13th amendment?

If it's in violation of your contract they can reject your resignation, but most people are At Will employees which means either side can terminate employment.

Re: Leaving Google

#356

Post by mikepurvis » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 3:09 PM UTC

aikinai wrote: post #143

mikepurvis wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about that. There are plenty of examples of "boutique" companies who pay well and have insanely good retention over the long term— 37signals/basecamp as one example, at least until that dustup earlier this year. Valve is probably another. It's not hard to imagine a Google that had taken this path, just focused indefinitely on search & search ads, run itself with <1000 highly skilled, highly paid employee…

That’s my dream too, but unfortunately the Google that took that path would have died long ago after being choked off by other large ecosystems from Microsoft, Apple, etc. First Chrome, then Android were critical, life-or-death maneuvers for Google. Without paving their own path straight to users’ eyeballs, Google would have never survived. But succeeding in that path also required an entire ecosystem to back it up.…

But Google could also have licensed search technology to other companies interested in making the top-to-bottom ecosystem play. I mean, they even tried that, they were just trying to do it in a market that wasn't ready to take search seriously.

Anyway, I'm not saying it's what they should have done. What they have done has obviously been wildly successful. But they could have done this and still given hundreds of people full-career employment and generational wealth.

Re: Leaving Google

#357

Post by ignoramous » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 3:10 PM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #189

slimsag wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You left out the best part: > We were expected to hit precise deadlines on multi-quarter projects (within two weeks), and when that inevitably didn't happen, we had to track all the time we spent on anything in 30 minute increments. It felt very cog-in-the-machine.

I find it amusingly ironic that Google employees don't like the idea of being tracked.

...even when paid handsomely.

Re: Leaving Google

#358

Post by RNCTX » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 3:10 PM UTC

achow wrote: post #269

RNCTX wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think checkboxes magically spring from the aether just to support sales demos?

Don't get your point. I was referring to this statement from OP: Google used to have a reputation for being an "engineer led" organization, I guess that's slowly changing over time. In enterprise applications (which solves for workflows - business, IT etc.) one needs lot of PM thinking for feature identifications, what to prioritize, gathering requirements etc. In Search defined Google one did not need PMs as require…

I think you're over-inflating the value of people fetching specs back and forth between a pool of customers and design / engineering.

If you're a software or hardware company, ultimately the people who design and build the software / hardware have to design and build the thing, everything else is ancillary to those tasks.

Re: Leaving Google

#359

Post by sulam » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 3:11 PM UTC

amha wrote: post #88

ashtonkem wrote: post #38

> Second, management was spread way too thin. My last manager had around 25 reports It would be rude to describe my anatomical response to having 25 reports, but suffice to say it wasn’t good. I generally consider 6-7 the ideal max, and 8-9 the “I’m dropping all the unimportant balls in order to keep juggling” line. 25 is so far beyond the pale I can’t imagine how any manager of managers’s worth their salary would le…

My direct supervisor has 75 direct reports. (Not a tech company––an elite private school in the Bay––but still...)

Education is a completely different animal. You’re not comparing apples to oranges here, you’re comparing leptons to gorillas.

I’m good friends with one of the high school teachers at “an elite private school in the Bay” (HRS) and it’s fun comparing and contrasting our jobs, but they are not at all the same job.

Re: Leaving Google

#360

Post by rahimiali » Sat, Oct 23, 2021, 3:12 PM UTC

Jensson wrote: post #50

nostrebored wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that products at large tech companies are going to be lead by engineers who by and large do not talk to people or understand the cross functional relationships and strategies is absurd. This isn't a future engineers want either -- I hear complaints about meetings from nearly every engineer I know. The idea that you should have low level knowledge of the system you're working on and high level knowledge of al…

> lead by engineers who by and large do not talk to people Do you think the engineer who leads a 1000 man org is not talking to people? I talked to the engineer leading our 500 man org, he talked to a lot of people and wanted their input and tried to understand the whole to make decisions. He had technical expertise so he could talk to low level engineers as well, but also to business people etc.

The engineer you describe sounds like an ex-engineer. That engineer sounds a manager.