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Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

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Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#351

Post by kylebyproxy »

quotemstr wrote: post #329
zhdc1 wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Gosh, disturbing comment section for disturbing times. When experimental medical treatments become mandatory for illnesses that have a 99%+ survival rate, and there is absolutely NO LONG TERM safety data, some red flags should be raised. The current case fatality rate is averaging around 2%, but that's with access to medical care. The CFR at the early stages of the pandemic, and in countries without good medical sy…

> The current case fatality rate is averaging around 2%, but that's with access to medical care. This is an order of magnitude off from what the data actually say. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... See table 4. Delta: total cases: 92,029 Deaths within 28 days: 117 100 * (117 / 92,029) = 0.127% No, not anywhere close to 2%. 5%? 10%? It never got anywhere near that. This disease just isn't…

> This disease just isn't that deadly

Vs. 4.6M dead worldwide, discounting 2nd order excess deaths.

How can you be so blithe?

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#352

Post by sk2020 »

enragedcacti wrote: post #159
sk2020 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s interesting. Every other vaccine, like Hep A, Hep B, MMR, TDAP, and flu I’ve taken was to protect myself, or so I thought. But if someone with an account on Wikipedia wrote something, well, I guess that would change everything. I guess we’re lucky to have people who care so deeply and personally about hospital bed utilization rates that they will inflict as much punishment as necessary to meet those goals.

FYI wikipedia requires references to a reputable source. Feel free to read some of the 100 references for herd immunity here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity#References

100 references is a big round number for sure. I’m guessing these address treatments that do not prevent infection or transmission.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#353

Post by UncleMeat »

michaelt wrote: post #40

As a part-time libertarian, one of the frustrating parts of the pandemic has been discovering how many people need the nanny state to step to stop them punching themselves in the face. Near the start of the pandemic, I thought the most intrusive state powers would barely be needed. Why would you ever need to make a vaccine mandatory? What rational person would refuse a lifesaving medicine offered to them for free? We…

The vaccines were as close to a literal miracle as I've ever seen in my life. We got several different vaccines that worked within a year of the pandemic hitting. There was no guarantee that we'd ever get working vaccines, let alone so many so fast.

Depressing that it wasn't enough.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#354

Post by UncleMeat »

version_five wrote: post #319
kxyvr wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think part of the difficulty with the libertarian point of view regarding the COVID vaccine is that not all parties are given a free choice either. For example, if someone refuses a vaccine, should an emergency room be free to refuse care? Currently, they can not due to EMTALA. That's not to say that it's unreasonable to question and philosophize the implications of a mandate. At the same time, barring a more effec…

> For example, if someone refuses a vaccine, should an emergency room be free to refuse care? This argument doesn't hold up. First, tying availability of medical care to the "right" behavior unconscionable at so many levels. In a developed country, do we really want to create a tier of disabled or unhealthy people that we've denied care to because we don't like their behavior (maybe dont answer that) More practically…

I think that refusing the get vaccinated is unconscionable at so many levels.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#355

Post by UncleMeat »

rajin444 wrote: post #49
michaelt wrote: post #40

As a part-time libertarian, one of the frustrating parts of the pandemic has been discovering how many people need the nanny state to step to stop them punching themselves in the face. Near the start of the pandemic, I thought the most intrusive state powers would barely be needed. Why would you ever need to make a vaccine mandatory? What rational person would refuse a lifesaving medicine offered to them for free? We…

> What rational person would refuse a lifesaving medicine offered to them for free? Somebody who has already had covid. They've already taken on risk - why expose themselves to more? Your argument of people acting rational breaks down in a lot of cases. Plenty of people have self destructive behaviors (many with externalities that affect others) that we are ok with.

The additional risk is nearly-zero and vaccination provides additional protection even in cases of prior infection.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#356

Post by Markoff »

michaelt wrote: post #40

As a part-time libertarian, one of the frustrating parts of the pandemic has been discovering how many people need the nanny state to step to stop them punching themselves in the face. Near the start of the pandemic, I thought the most intrusive state powers would barely be needed. Why would you ever need to make a vaccine mandatory? What rational person would refuse a lifesaving medicine offered to them for free? We…

Because it's not lifesaving medicine for them? Vaccines are lifesaving for old and obese, not so much for anyone else who is pretty much at zero risk from COVID, yet most of the people are harassed with restrictions and forced vaccination if they don't wanna be discriminated for being healthy and taking care of their health unlike obese filling hospitals.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#357

Post by oliwarner »

whiddershins wrote: post #346
oliwarner wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My antibody test was more painful than the pair of injections. Vaccination doesn't harm people with existing antibodies (they just rebuff it faster) and going through the process serves as a good booster.

You don’t know this. We don’t know this. We have to stop making these statements so casually about things that haven’t been studied.

What? They have been studied. For this and for other vaccinations. Kids get duplicate MMRs all the time because of lost paperwork.

Sometimes it feels like a new virus comes along and people forget we have 111 years experience with vaccinations.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#358

Post by angelzen »

herbst wrote: post #271
angelzen wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are vaccines. Everyone that wants a vaccine already got it or can easily get it. People say they are extremely good at eliminate severe covid, that's what I got one myself. But at this point taking a vaccine or not is a personal decision. People are punching themselves in the face all the time, see obesity crisis for example. Should we ban hamburgers & fries next?

> Everyone that wants a vaccine already got it or can easily get it. Assuming you have luck and live in a rich country that offers one of the actually working vaccines. Everyone is still a very far stretch

Everyone under the purview of Biden's decree.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#359

Post by oliwarner »

whiddershins wrote: post #348
donutdan4114 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CDC says vaccines are still better: https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-pr... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/search/research-news/12157/ This paper says natural immunity better: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v... Unfortunately the science is evolving so fast and the variants are coming so fast, it's impossible to keep up!

I don’t have the links, but studies from Israel and UK are showing 9x to 27x better protection by acquired immunity over vaccine. Google around and you should find these.

It's a bit disingenuous to omit that they showed even higher protection in those who had previous infection and a vaccine.

The time wasted trying to confirm a previous infection would be better used just getting a jab.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#360

Post by archontes »

michaelt wrote: post #40

As a part-time libertarian, one of the frustrating parts of the pandemic has been discovering how many people need the nanny state to step to stop them punching themselves in the face. Near the start of the pandemic, I thought the most intrusive state powers would barely be needed. Why would you ever need to make a vaccine mandatory? What rational person would refuse a lifesaving medicine offered to them for free? We…

This and the existence of commons are the primary issues with libertarianism.

If you want to build a system as large as 300,000,000 people, you need some way to control the dynamics of that system so that outliers don't cause catastrophes, and the larger the system, the more extreme the outliers you'll encounter.

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