Earlier quoted context omitted.
I would say it depends. If it takes 80 hours to get approval and it turns out that the warrant was, well, warranted, then I don't consider it to be a big problem. If it takes 80 hours and it turns out to be abuse, then heads would probably roll. However, in most cases these things are legitimate. I've worked in government and most people have good intentions. We don't have to protect ourselves, as a society, against…
Good intentions means nothing. Most people have good intentions but that doesn't prevent them from abusing power, lying and causing damages intentionally and unintentionally.
Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in 24 hours
351–360 of 397 posts
Re: Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in 24 hours
#352Earlier quoted context omitted.
The law generally allows the state to abuse its people in all kinds of ways. That’s the social contact: that abuse is seldom, and when it occurs the abuser gets punished. If it occurs enough then usually something big socially occurs, like a revolution.
A contract is consent in both ways. Most people have not consented neither explicitly nor tacitly to any of this. I understand what the term means, but most people seem to stick with the enlightenment-age definition while in reality what we currently have in most states (eastern or western) is not a social contract, but a hostage situation.
I agree and disagree with both of you. They're right that institutional power can and does get away with trampling the social contract, to the degree it feels it can. You're right that the contract itself is (supposedly) premised on mutual consent. But both of these strike me as defeatist postures. They both have in common the idea that the contract is with the state which holds all the power. What I think you both miss is that every state and every government is just made up of people. Whatever durability liberal democracy has, or the fact that it's emerged repeatedly over a couple millenia and shown itself capable of out-producing and out-warring autocracies, is not as much premised on a Hobbesian contract or a legal contract, or even the consent of the governed, so much as it is on the consent of those in government, their own sense of social status, and the degree to which that status results from their exclusion of the people they govern or their need for approval from those people. To the extent that all these incursions on privacy are still being done in the name of protecting children or stopping terrorism, as phony as that is, it gives the people in power a psychological pass for doing what would otherwise be Stasi or KGB style intrusion. It makes them acceptable at parties and makes them able to believe that they're "the good guys". The collapse of the USSR came about because the individuals tasked with oppressing the population - from Gorbachev down to the border guards - could no longer view themselves as the good guys if they did these things to their countrymen. The last stages of an oppressive society are where fear of punishment is no longer as bad as the need to escape oppression. For reasons that dovetail with the simplified explanations offered about what governments naturally do, etc, it's easy for a free society like Australia to slip into totalitarianism, and quite hard for it to get out. But all it really boils down to - and I mean, even down to the level of these universal observations we're all making in online comments, and up to the Congress or parliament or the inner circle of the CCP, is an individual dick measuring popularity contest. If the people in power are made to feel they are the bad guys, they'll overthrow the system. But that does require the revolution coming for its own. In this case, it will be no time at all before some MP gets entrapped by one of these things... the question on the table is really who is in charge there now and where does power flow from?
Re: Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in 24 hours
#353I'm most curious about what they mean by "ADDING" data... Does this mean the police can create a social media account in your name? Imagine for instance that they suspect one of your family members of tax evasion. Can they create a fake social media account or email account registered to you, and impersonate you for the sake of entrapping someone else? Like hey uncle, love your new car, got any hot accounting tips? I…
The law generally allows the state to abuse its people in all kinds of ways. That’s the social contact: that abuse is seldom, and when it occurs the abuser gets punished. If it occurs enough then usually something big socially occurs, like a revolution.
Re: Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in 24 hours
#354Earlier quoted context omitted.
going by the number living and moving to canada/west coast it can't be to hard for those under 35 with the working holiday visa
Australians in Australia are not allowed to leave the country they way they were prior to covid. Before, like any other reasonable country, all you needed was a valid passport. Heck, the U.S. doesn't even require that much. But now Australia requires more than just a passport, and to my knowledge that has had the net effect of not letting any Australians out.
Previously living overseas was an automatic exemption to the exit ban, but now this must be applied for with proof of overseas residence.
As Australian bureaucracy is barely up to the task of organising a chook raffle this is pretty scary. The news articles I've seen give me the impression that the application process is a bit of a dice roll as to whether you get it or not with people re-applying dozens of times over months and no transparency on why their exit permits are rejected. Whether it will be this hard for overseas resident Australians to escape home remains to be seen.
As a way of discouraging Aussies abroad from popping back in for a family funeral or holiday and clogging up the quarantine system it seems a rather effective deterrent (stay awhile, stay forever!) but the minister responsible reckons that's not the motivation for the rule, so you have to wonder what they're thinking.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-12/government-defends-ne...
Re: Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in 24 hours
#355It took me just a couple of minutes to find the bill in question, read up on it and find that most of the claims made in this article are incorrect. It's not "rushed through parliament in 24 hours", it's been in a process since at least December 2020. The 'without a judge' part is strongly misleading: (5) If subsection (4) applies, the applicant must: (a) provide as much information as the eligible Judge or nominated…
Re: Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in 24 hours
#356Australia is turning itself into a prison state. Citizens are allowed to go outside for maximum one or two hours, total surveillance, unconstrained searches of the property... About the same set of rights as a supermax prison inmate has, it looks like.
Re: Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in 24 hours
#357Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Why would the bottom 51% have more influence than the top 51% 51 + 51 = 102% The bottom 51% have more influence than the top 49% because one is a majority. There is your answer.
I think you missed the point. By this logic, the top 51% have more influence than the bottom 49% so why isn't GP saying they're the ones driving democracy? As an aside, if you look at the elected representatives of Australia, I suspect you'll find most of them are highly educated.
Re: Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in 24 hours
#358Earlier quoted context omitted.
Minor nitpick: Australia is turning itself back into a prison state.
Back then they didn't really have a choice. Now it's all on them - they elected those people.
Re: Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in 24 hours
#359It took me just a couple of minutes to find the bill in question, read up on it and find that most of the claims made in this article are incorrect. It's not "rushed through parliament in 24 hours", it's been in a process since at least December 2020. The 'without a judge' part is strongly misleading: (5) If subsection (4) applies, the applicant must: (a) provide as much information as the eligible Judge or nominated…
"Judge or nominated AAT member" AAT members are not judges, so does a judge need to nominate these AAT members? Even if they do, I think many would argue that the AAT should not be fulfilling this role. Only judges should, as they are talking about crimes with seven or more year sentences.
13 Nominated AAT members
(1) The Minister may, by writing, nominate a person who holds one of the following appointments to the Administrative Appeals Tribunal to issue warrants under this Part:
(a) Deputy President;
(b) senior member (of any level);
(c) member (of any level).
(2) Despite subsection (1), the Minister must not nominate a person who holds an appointment as a part‑time senior member or a member of the Tribunal unless the person:
(a) is enrolled as a legal practitioner of the High Court, of another federal court or of the Supreme Court of a State or of the Australian Capital Territory; and
(b) has been so enrolled for not less than 5 years.
(3) A nomination ceases to have effect if:
(a) the nominated AAT member ceases to hold an appointment described in subsection (1); or
(b) the Minister, by writing, withdraws the nomination.
(4) A nominated AAT member has, in relation to the performance or exercise of a function or power conferred on a nominated AAT member by this Act, the same protection and immunity as a Justice of the High Court has in relation to proceedings in the High Court.
Source: Section 13 of the law https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/C2017C00193Re: Surveilance bill rushed through Australian parliament in 24 hours
#360Earlier quoted context omitted.
Right, but like besides a reference, is there something you'd suggest as an action? (which represents taking the redpill)
The "Red-pill" in the Matrix signifies an action which one cannot go back on. It is an action which requires the user to shatter their built-up version of reality forever (signified by the the blue-pills they have been taking all along). We need more people to challenge their view of reality, and accept that things may not be as happy and comfortable as we want them to be for the security of our futures and our child…