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Apple's child protection features spark concern within its own ranks: sources

reuters.com

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Re: Apple's child protection features spark concern within its own ranks: sources

#351

Post by calvinmorrison »

etempleton wrote: post #346
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually think something else happened, and to be honest I think many at Apple behind this decision are likely pretty surprised by the blowback. That is, it seems like Apple really wanted to preserve "end-to-end" encryption, but they needed to do something to address the CSAM issue lest governments come down on them hard. Thus, my guess is, at least at the beginning, they saw this as a strong win for privacy. As th…

Something probably did happen. Apple no doubt became increasingly aware of just how legally culpable they are for photos uploaded to iCloud. For content that is pirated Apple would receive a slap on the wrist, but for content that shows the exploitation of children? And that Apple is hosting on their owned servers? There is no doubt every government will throw their full legal weight behind that case. Now they are st…

I doubt a judge can find apple liable for hosting encrypted data if its illegal. That would mean every e2e storage solution, or even just encryption and storing files on a s3 bucket host would be liable.

Apple should use it's gigantic legal arm to set good precedents for privacy in court.

Re: Apple's child protection features spark concern within its own ranks: sources

#352

Post by thevagrant »

I think this has been developed by Apple attempting to balance a complex issue: E.g. Government request asking them to report with certainty that their cloud storage is not used for illegal activity (CP in this particular case but each country/govt may end up with different requirements).

Apple thought they found a clever way to satisfy a government request of "Can you guarantee your storage is not used to house XYZ". Apple then continues to be able to advertise 'privacy' while retaining E2E encryption (or at least have E2E across all services eventually).

What they didn't forsee is the potential slippery slope backlash that the IT community has become concerned about.

The scanning feature could be used in more nefarious ways (if modified in future). For example. The hash checking could be altered to check and hash against each photo metadata field instead of the photo itself.

Now we can find who took photos in a particular location at a particular point in history while still retaining E2E!

Would it go that far? Or can we trust Apple to stop moving the line in the sand?

Re: Apple's child protection features spark concern within its own ranks: sources

#353

Post by wonderwonder »

There is no way this doesn't get out of hand. This program is now the number one hacking target for every nation on earth. Currently it scans for CSAM, but can 'Free Hong Kong' images get added? What about Q or anti Putin literature? What if the US government believes incredibly sensitive documents were photographed and lives depend on finding out who did it? Is apple going to start reporting teens for selfies? This is a stone throw from escalating to minority report. I know this seems a little far fetched but it is very rare for governments or companies to willingly become less intrusive, it always escalates.

Re: Apple's child protection features spark concern within its own ranks: sources

#354

Post by amcoastal »

whoisjuan wrote: post #132

This CSAM Prevention initiative by Apple is a 180 degress change of their general message around privacy. Imagine investing hundreds of millions of dollars in pro-privacy programs, privacy features, privacy marketing, etc... just to pull this reverse card. Of course this is going to spark concern within their own ranks. It's like working for a food company that claims to use organic, non-processed, fair-trade ingredi…

So who is responsible for this decision? Is it Tim Cook?

Re: Apple's child protection features spark concern within its own ranks: sources

#355

Post by calvinmorrison »

BikiniPrince wrote: post #218
jmull wrote: post #167

I just do not want Apple scanning my phone for the purpose of finding something they can send to the police. I’m not even talking about any “slippery slope” scenarios and I’ll never have any of the material they are looking for. And right or wrong, I don’t really fear a false identification, so this isn’t about a worry that they will actually turn me in. I just don’t want them scanning my phone for the purpose of tur…

You don’t have anything they want today. How difficult would it be to transform it into looking for images from political dissenters? Now, you have a magical list to find targets to probe further. Maybe you want to identify behaviors you disagree with. Images tell a story and maybe not to the people who are looking out for your best interests. Wrong think always changes.

Sure its "just" CSAM for Americans, but for Chinese citizens, it won't be, of any other sizable market for Apple.

Re: Apple's child protection features spark concern within its own ranks: sources

#356

Post by calvinmorrison »

BikiniPrince wrote: post #220
ZFH wrote: post #209

"Apple says it will scan only in the United States and other countries to be added one by one, only when images are set to be uploaded to iCloud, and only for images that have been identified by the National Center for Exploited and Missing Children and a small number of other groups." First reference I read about adding other countries as a done deal, and especially about an incredibly opaque "small number of other…

The children trope is a really big red herring. Anything to get the foot in the door.

The 4 horsemen of the Privacy Apocalypse: csam, terrorists, piracy and drugs!

Re: Apple's child protection features spark concern within its own ranks: sources

#357

Post by tibyat »

cucumb3rrelish wrote: post #242
breck wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My money is this is secretly about nuclear, bio, chemical or other WMD or “dangerous” material. I can’t imagine that Apple would be so stupid to open such a Pandora’s box to an Orwellian state and crimes against all children in the name of making no statistical difference in the porn problem. There has got to be a hidden story here and severe pressure on top executives, otherwise I can’t see how the math makes sense.…

Something tells me people with access to nuclear arsenal are not going to take pictures of it with an iphone and share them via imessages

Don't know where you have been the past four years, frankly I'm jealous. The US president literally did this: https://www.wired.com/story/trump-tweeted-a-sensitive-photo-...

Re: Apple's child protection features spark concern within its own ranks: sources

#358

Post by zepto »

zionic wrote: post #343
zepto wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but the CSAM scanning routine is absurdly narrow and difficult to use for detecting anything but CSAM, whereas a general purpose hash matching algorithm really is just a few lines of code. This whole ‘now that they have a scanner it’s easier’ reasoning doesn’t make sense. iOS already had numerous better matching algorithms if your goal is to do general spying.

This is false information, the scanning system is highly generalized to finding any type of photo via fuzzy matched perceptual hashes. It can target a pride flag just as easily as CP.

No, what you have said is bullshit. The perceptual hashes are not generalized. They do not match ‘child porn’ or ‘pride flag’. They match specific photos from a database.

You might argue that that database could contain a specific photo of a pride flag. You would be right, but there are safeguards against that. The system will not trigger with just one match. A set of multiple images must match. So no, the system won’t match a pride flag, and no the system won’t match a specific picture of a pride flag.

The next argument would be that a whole load of pictures of pride flags could be uploaded and then someone who has enough of those pictures would trigger a match.

This is true from a technical standpoint, but there are two more safeguards. The database is maintained by NCMEC, which is a non profit dedicated to tackling child abuse, and matches are visually confirmed by Apple.

So, to match someone who just happens to have a pride flag in a picture is not possible. To match someone who has a set of specific pictures of pride flags is only possible if both Apple and NCMEC collude.

So no - it can’t target a pride flag at all, much less as easily as CP.

Re: Apple's child protection features spark concern within its own ranks: sources

#359

Post by [deleted] »

wonderwonder wrote: post #353

There is no way this doesn't get out of hand. This program is now the number one hacking target for every nation on earth. Currently it scans for CSAM, but can 'Free Hong Kong' images get added? What about Q or anti Putin literature? What if the US government believes incredibly sensitive documents were photographed and lives depend on finding out who did it? Is apple going to start reporting teens for selfies? This…

[deleted]
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