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American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

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Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#351

Post by kube-system »

BitwiseFool wrote: post #333
donny2018 wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am witnessing public schools take math out of the curriculum at elementary, middle and high schools. Is that for real? If true, this is ridiculous. Do American authorities want to introduce some kind of education for plebs? How is such low standard for basic education is even acceptable in the modern world? It’s not only about “beauty of math” but at least basic math is required to help develop some specific cogn…

Funny you mention that, this was submitted earlier today: Oregon students shouldn’t have to prove they can write or do math to get diploma https://www.salemreporter.com/posts/4419/oregon-students-sho...

That headline sounds a bit of an editorialized interpretation of the situation. The debate doesn't seem to be whether or not they prove their skills, it is a debate over who they prove them to, and when a change should be implemented.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#352

Post by skeletal88 »

maga wrote: post #273
omginternets wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My wife went through the French "classe préparatoire" system and describes a similar degree of raw effort that was put into her studies (and in particular, mathematics). She talks about spending 10-12 hours a day either in class or studying at home, and I have to admit the amount of knowledge in that woman's head is absolutely astounding. Her education is elite in the same way that a sports team or military unit can…

A bit tangential here, but our calculus/math analysis professor actually told us that the Russian and later Soviet math school drew a lot from the French, although, he might have been biased due to his apparent partiality towards Bourbaki. According to him, the university level math was taught exclusively in French during the Tsarist times, and they had some troubles coming up with Russian terminology when Soviets or…

The language of the tsarist elite was french. They even didn't need to know russian, except for speaking to their servants

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#354

Post by leto_ii »

markus_zhang wrote: post #235
leto_ii wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience in my home country of Romania was similar to yours, however my conclusions couldn't be more different. > American schools are too soft on science in general. [...]The Albanian school was brutal in teaching science How on earth is brutality in teaching a good idea? What was the effect of this approach on the average Albanian or Romanian student? Sure it worked fine for a few of us, but overall the result…

I don't think it's really "brutal" but "challenging". So if the kid has no interest in Math he/she would regard that as brutal and for others who do have interest it's just challenging and maybe even fun. Just like people who like to crack Leetcode problems, those are challenging and fun.

> I don't think it's really "brutal" but "challenging".

Brutal was the term used by the parent, I just picked it up from there.

> if the kid has no interest in Math he/she would regard that as brutal and for others who do have interest it's just challenging and maybe even fun

Throughout my education I was in both camps at different times. The more "brutal" things got (dry, formal curriculum, tough teachers) the more it put me off. On the other hand patient and engaging teachers could get me to spend countless hours after school working on math problems.

Interests are things that develop based on intrinsic attributes but also based on environmental feedback. I suspect the latter is fast more important.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#355

Post by bullshitt »

bsanr2 wrote: post #328
tsimionescu wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this is partly true, and a point of national pride (I'm Romanian), it's also important to realize that this is the positive end of a very unequal system. If you have the good luck of having a good teacher, and enough material conditions to focus on learning, school will leave you with quite a good array of knowledge, especially in Maths and sciences. However, the majority of people don't have this luck, and the…

>It's also important to note that there is widespread, normalized abuse in the teaching system, especially towards children with poor grades, or who are just poor. Things like yelling, demeaning, even spanking and hair cutting (for male students with longer hair, especially) Americans will be appalled, without realizing that these are common hazards for poor, and especially black, students to face. In many cases, the…

Lmao where in the USA are teachers spanking and hair cutting blacks in the inner city.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#356

Post by starkd »

udev wrote: post #326

Lots of comments asking what is "Soviet/Russian Math" actually like, and how is it different. I was lucky to get an education in three systems (Soviet Math, Romanian Math School (influenced by both French and Soviet Math school), and finally in a world top 40 university in North America. I would summarize the Soviet/Russian Math/Physics approach like this: - understanding of the mechanism/intuition behind the equatio…

I've heard from many Russian immigrant friends who insist that Soviet education was one of the few areas that was done well in USSR. Particularly, mathematics, which, other than the obligatory Marx/Lenin quotes at the top of papers, tended to avoid ideological corruption.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#357

Post by holoduke »

visarga wrote: post #94
gnat wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do the students bring any motivation to the classroom? Like, is there a culture of "study hard and pay attention in maths and sciences, because that's how we escape poverty" or something like that? Here in New Zealand, middle class parents put a high premium on being happy and fulfilled, and most (that I've seen across several schools) don't really prime their kids for academic success by saying "this is important, w…

Depends very much on the parents. Some families put a lot of importance on studies, and others don't. Usually those from countryside or without higher education would not care.

The most important thing is to shape your kids in such a way that they can make choices themselves. Worst thing is when parents are pushing their children to go for the highest (their eyes) education. A child who likes what he/she is doing, even when it is 'just' wood making becomes a much happier child. Northern Europe is good in this. The US so so. But China and India are the worst examples. So many talented people doing things not in line with their real desires.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#358

Post by starkd »

sologoub wrote: post #350
udev wrote: post #326

Lots of comments asking what is "Soviet/Russian Math" actually like, and how is it different. I was lucky to get an education in three systems (Soviet Math, Romanian Math School (influenced by both French and Soviet Math school), and finally in a world top 40 university in North America. I would summarize the Soviet/Russian Math/Physics approach like this: - understanding of the mechanism/intuition behind the equatio…

That’s very insightful - when I switched to US high school, the approach to math was baffling - everyone had programmable graphing calculators, whereas I wasn’t allowed any calculator at all, and took a lot longer to solve the most basic problems. Most questions were answered by the teacher as “it’s a formula, you follow it and memorize it” (which sounded ridiculous to me for the exact reasons above - I was taught to…

I never understood why graphing calculators were required for basic calculus or math courses. Always wondered if it was part of a marketing deal with the company that manufactured them. The course is said to require a particular make and model of graphing calculator.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#359

Post by leto_ii »

inter_netuser wrote: post #145
lordnacho wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Have you ever wondered how it's possible that the same "stupid" Americans that don't learn integrals and group theory in highschool somehow manage just fine in university and later on in life? They do just fine because they aren't selected to do jobs where they need those kinds of skills, because they tend not to have them. If they were taught the stuff at least they would have the choice. I'm not in favour of brut…

I don't think it brutalizes anyone. Capable kids must be challenged, or they get bored. Kids that coulndt keep up went to a different track. at the very minimum, pressure during oral exams taught to work against the clock, develop conviction and do your best to defend your position.

> pressure during oral exams taught to work against the clock, develop conviction and do your best to defend your position.

In some students. In others it just engendered the feeling that they're morons and that math is just "not for them". Math and science are for absolutely everybody. Not everybody will make a career out of them, but everybody can enjoy them.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#360

Post by pmoriarty »

petre wrote: post #201
whimsicalism wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely this. People seem to ignore selection effects when taking with immigrants from other countries, especially students. These people typically come from the richest/most connected families in their home country* *If they don't come from the Americas

It depends. Some of these people (their parents) left their home country because of economic reasons. This is the primary reason for immigration from Eastern Europe to the EU and the UK. If you're in the US, yes, the visa selection program requirements make your average immigrant come from richer or more connected families. For instance quite a number of people left my country to the US using connections in neo prote…

> > people typically come from the richest/most connected families in their home country

> It depends. Some of these people (their parents) left their home country because of economic reasons.

Another common reason for leaving is discrimination. Those people who leave because of discrimination are very rarely well connected or wealthy, or they usually wouldn't have to leave.

Then there are the outright asylum seekers and undocumented immigrants, who are also usually very poor and lack connections.

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