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Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#351

Post by mjevans »

WalterBright wrote: post #323
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All of this stuff about workers disappearing and people reconsidering their lives is pretty much a sideshow of projected narrative that is detached from what is really going on. Well said. We’ve been bombarded with news articles and thought pieces about how COVID has forever changed the workforce, how people are refusing to work jobs they don’t like, how people are quitting en masse because their employers won’t al…

> companies are abandoning office spaces in favor of full remote for months now On the other hand, traffic during rush hour seems to have returned to as bad as it ever was.

All those new and used cars are now PPE bubbles and added freedom for people that previously took the bus or carpooled. If they make work at the office mandatory now we're going to see even worse than pre-pandemic commutes.

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#352

Post by skuhn »

RustyConsul wrote: post #321
okareaman wrote: post #178

When these articles are about the US they never mention the brutal policies of ICE (Immigration Control and Enforcement) which discourage seasonal workers from Mexico, who are already hesitant due to the pandemic. I mean, if you're going to deport Mexicans who served honorably in the military it's a big FU to Mexicans. I wouldn't come here either.

When i was in the Air Force, people got citizenship for serving... How are they being deported?

This NYT article [1] has some quotes from Sen. Duckworth that outlines the problem as she sees it.

One in particular: "People don’t even know that we are deporting veterans. I think most Americans assume that when somebody serves, they gain American citizenship. They don’t realize that we are actually deporting people who served honorably."

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/07/us/politics/veterans-depo...

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#353

Post by mjevans »

throwawayboise wrote: post #344
Closi wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, when I hear about people struggling to recruit, it’s often minimum wage jobs on awful conditions. People don’t want to work for absolute minimum wage on a temporary contract picking fruit? Colour me surprised!

IDK about everywhere but I'm not seeing anyone still paying minimum wage. McDonalds is paying $12.50/hr for day, $15/hr for night work. That's $30k/year FTE for a job that you can learn in a week and that requires zero prior experience or education. And they are still begging.

Bad bosses, unstable schedules / hours, not a career. Probably doesn't have "benefits", which everyone should have for a level playing field (so medicare for all, get value for our taxes).

Also, have you seen inflation lately?

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#354

Post by michaelbrave »

lucb1e wrote: post #93
throw_m239339 wrote: post #46

There is no "employee shortage". I don't know the reason why the main stream press started to roll with that narrative but this is a blatant lie. However unlike before the pandemic, some candidates might refuse a job that only offers a pittance, especially given the high inflation in most of the west.

> unlike before the pandemic, some candidates might refuse a job I don't understand this one, wouldn't a pandemic (entire industries had to cut back on costs) cause more people to be looking for work and thus tip the supply and demand balance towards people being less picky?

"Essential workers" weren't treated well during the pandemic, even now with arguments about masks it's pretty much awful. Consider also how many were laid off initially (showing how their job sees them as disposable on top of that) and combine that with how they were barely scraping by before but now inflation of essentials like food have gone up to the point that it wouldn't scrape by as easily anymore and most aren't willing to put up with it for a pittance anymore.

I actually think the bigger picture is that with schools/daycare/camps closed there is no affordable way for kids to be watched while at work which has caused multi income families to go back to single income families and in many cases this causes them to have more money than they would have with daycare, especially if they are utilizing unemployment benefits in place of one of those multi incomes. I'm not sure how this is working with single parents but my guess would be that a lot of them moved back with parents when they got laid off at first, thus also causing an imbalance.

It's also worth mentioning that a lot of people died from covid and if you look at it outside of political leanings a lot of those who didn't get vaccinated are the less educated and less wealthy, so I'm sure that's at least a part of what's going on.

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#355

Post by [deleted] »

asah wrote: post #52
calltrak wrote: post #7

I am an unemployed programmer. I am 50 years old. I have 15 years of C#, 15 years of sql server, two years of golang, two years of node.js, vue.js, svelte, css, html, postgress, rabbitmq, etc etc etc.... My skills list is about 10 times this short list I just threw up. They tell me there is a skills and labor shortage in tech. That's complete bullshit I am UNEMPLOYED for a year. I don't believe one dam word the gover…

FYI the contact info (URL) in your HN account is 404ing...

[deleted]

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#356

Post by eropple »

throwawayboise wrote: post #349
eropple wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then shouldn't they be working more personally? Or shouldn't they no longer be in business? (And yeah, I'm well aware how much many small restaurant owners work. See door number two.) People around here talk a lot about unsustainable business models. I don't think it's really any better if it's offloading its unsustainability onto its workforce, which is what's being described here. From where I stand, as somebody wh…

People need work to keep them occupied. It's built in to our psychology by evolution. We know that idle people cause most of the problems in society. So I do think there is a need for everyone to work to make the whole thing "go", if by "go" you mean have a peaceful, civilized way of living.

This sounds teleological. I can find plenty of things to do, many probably more personally fulfilling as well as societally beneficial, than flipping burgers would be.

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#357

Post by rcpt »

kktkti9 wrote: post #259
nimbius wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotal but...can we mention burn-out? as a "blue collar" worker i dont think anyone mentions it enough. I have a coworker who left a 9-5 body shop making decent money as a painter for a medical billing job that was closer to her father in 2020. she came back to that body shop just two weeks ago because she was pulling non-stop mandatory overtime in a salary position that treated her like trash. she never even gave…

Turns out a “services based” economy is a euphemism for austerity based economy. Adam Smith claimed that “…landlords' role in the economic process is passive. Their ability to reap a revenue solely from ownership of land tends to make them indolent and inept, and so they tend to be unable to even look after their own economic interests". Look at dollar rich rent seekers destabilizing their value store. Dead guys alre…

I think what he said still mostly applies to landlords. Maybe even more so as real estate enjoys several tax and policy advantages that other investments don't.

Yes I get that economic rent seeking is huge and things like patent trolls financial lobbyists are problems but his comment fits traditional landlords best.

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#358

Post by nicoffeine »

nradov wrote: post #302
bumby wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or it traps them in a cycle of poverty where there’s never enough time or money to make the skills necessary to advance. When I worked as a dishwasher or landscaper, I wasn’t building valuable skills to progress my career. Maybe your point holds for some careers, but I’m doubtful it’s relevant to most low-wage (especially non-skilled) labor. I think the point is also diluted when considering there’s almost always mor…

For some people the skills they need to develop first are really basic, like showing up on time and sober, and following basic instructions. We're talking about the lowest tier of the workforce here where the concept of a "career" is kind of alien. Many of them have never been formally employed before and need an opportunity to learn really simple things that most of us take for granted. I think most HN users are dis…

> like showing up on time and sober, and following basic instructions

Poor people are not stupid, or unambitious, and have the same addiction rates as the rich. Of course, rich addicts go to rehab, and poor addicts are imprisoned.

When they try to work their way up at places like Walmart, and get fucked over again and again even when they are taking time off to serve in the military[1], they recognize that the system is rigged and there is no point in pretending otherwise.

There is not a single state where working full time at one minimum wage job is enough to pay for an apartment. [2] That's why more than 5 million people work more than one job. They are trying to beat the system. They want an education and a career. But our society does not provide a realistic path for them to achieve any of those goals.

[1] https://www.militarytimes.com/pay-benefits/2021/01/05/walmar...

[2] http://nlihc.org/sites/default/files/oor/2012-OOR.pdf

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#359

Post by FooBarBizBazz »

hncurious wrote: post #240
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, try being over 50. I just gave up, and retired early. Best decision I ever made. I'm working for free, with NPOs, and it's been a joy. The worst part, for me, has been the naked contempt and disrespect. I don't expect to be worshipped, but raw insults are beyond the pale. It's -literally- like a hazing ritual. With all the news about "frat boy culture," I think I see where it comes from. I don't think it's just…

Tech was once not that respected, & mostly full of nerds who were just way into tech. But then tech rose in status & income, & was invaded by top school kids seeking such things, who took over the top slots. These new kids didn’t much respect older tech folks from wrong schools. https://twitter.com/robinhanson/status/1421212798881722368

The reduced standing (and compensation) of Finance post-2008 has something to do with it.

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#360

Post by ipnon »

peakaboo wrote: post #67
paganel wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The worst part, for me, has been the naked contempt and disrespect. If you don’t mind and if it’s not sensitive do you mind to share some examples? I’ve just gone past the 40 year threshold myself and I think I’m starting to see/notice some of the same things you noticed, i.e. less “camaraderie” (for lack of a better word) and more “getting on top of the other”, a feeling I didn’t have when I entered this industry…

I think tech attracts a certain type of person... People with high iq but very low scores in compassion and care.

All high achievement types are like this, because high achievement[a] requires selfishness. Compare the law firm partner who works until midnight everyday while his wife and children languish at home, with the priest who volunteers at the food kitchen and adopts orphans. Both add some value to society, arguably, but one of them lives in a mansion and one in subsidized housing. Highly prosocial behavior is not always incentivized in American society[a]. This gives us benefits like iPhones and Amazon Prime, and detriments like homelessness and deaths of despair.

[a] In a material sense, excluding moral and ethical achievements. "Mad Men"-style success, not Buddha-style success.

[b] Although Americans on average are extraordinarily charitable in terms of dollars donated

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