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Firefox lost 50M users since 2019

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Re: Firefox lost 50M users since 2019

#351

Post by granzymes »

Dracophoenix wrote: post #326
loudmax wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft's crime was doing this in the 90s when they had nearly complete control of the desktop market and there were few alternatives for getting on the internet. This was a monopoly. Apple has about half the mobile market share in the US, and about a quarter globally. There are plenty of alternative ways to get on the internet. This is not a monopoly. You can't just look at bundling the browser with the OS in isol…

And that's why I regard anti-trust laws as inconsistently applied cudgels and not as legal gospel. If tying (assuming there's a consistent definition of the word) is such a bad idea to begin with why does it matter whether it's done by a company at 90% or 10% of market? Equality under the law should be the measure.

> If tying (assuming there's a consistent definition the word) is such a bad idea to begin with why does it matter whether it's done by a company at 90% or 10% of market? Equality under the law should be the measure.

There is nothing inherently wrong with tying, which you might also call "bundling." Quoting from the FTC's website:

Offering products together as part of a package can benefit consumers who like the convenience of buying several items at the same time. Offering products together can also reduce the manufacturer's costs for packaging, shipping, and promoting the products. Of course, some consumers might prefer to buy products separately, and when they are offered only as part of a package, it can be more difficult for consumers to buy only what they want.

For competitive purposes, a monopolist may use forced buying, or "tie-in" sales, to gain sales in other markets where it is not dominant and to make it more difficult for rivals in those markets to obtain sales. This may limit consumer choice for buyers wanting to purchase one ("tying") product by forcing them to also buy a second ("tied") product as well. Typically, the "tied" product may be a less desirable one that the buyer might not purchase unless required to do so, or may prefer to get from a different seller. If the seller offering the tied products has sufficient market power in the "tying" product, these arrangements can violate the antitrust laws.

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-a...

Re: Firefox lost 50M users since 2019

#352

Post by [deleted] »

read_if_gay_ wrote: post #294
agumonkey wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless Meet and other Google apps are really tailored to subperform under firefox I don't think it's a solid case. If google devs code doesn't run as fast in firefox why should google take the blame ? or maybe google is using non html5 apis to tap into chrome for faster perf in which case things are muddy.. since whatwg kinda allows unofficial apis

Obviously, a private company can do what they want and they shouldn't be forced to make their code run on other platforms.

[deleted]

Re: Firefox lost 50M users since 2019

#353

Post by mmis1000 »

andrepd wrote: post #311
gibba999 wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My child's school uses Google Classroom. The Google experience is unusable in Firefox. Meet doesn't work (e.g. he sees nothing when the teacher screenshares). This seems really quite anti-competitive. My child cares about privacy and switches browsers. Chrome for Meet, Firefox for most non-Google things.

You can improve the situation somewhat by using bromite/ungoogled-chromium instead of chrome, for the purposes when Firefox doesn't work.

They just check against identifier. It even claim google chrome is a better solution on the new Edge browser (which is basically a ms'styled google chrome).

Doing that is so absurd in my opinion.

Re: Firefox lost 50M users since 2019

#354

Post by eingaeKaiy8ujie »

sirius87 wrote: post #222

Switched from Chrome to Firefox around 2017 then to closed-source Chromium-based Vivaldi and haven't looked back since. Whatever architectural changes Firefox made around '17-19 broke the browser for me. Tabs would randomly go dead, accepting no input. Mobile Firefox was worse. The old Firefox was perfectly fine , save for being noticeably but, for me, acceptably slower than Chrome. Then Firefox Aurora or whatever ha…

closed-source == not secure

Re: Firefox lost 50M users since 2019

#355

Post by eitland »

Nextgrid wrote: post #161
mfer wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We shouldn’t just look at power users. Google and Microsoft, for example, constantly advertise to use their browser when you visit their properties. I imagine this has an impact.

But if Firefox was genuinely better it could win via word of mouth; whether it’s power users recommending it or people having it on their work computers (because their IT mandates it) and wanting the same great browser at home. The problem is that Firefox is basically a Chrome clone at this point, all the way down to the privacy-invading features such as telemetry, so using it nowadays is more down to ideology than a…

> But if Firefox was genuinely better it could win via word of mouth; whether it’s power users recommending it or people having it on their work computers (because their IT mandates it) and wanting the same great browser at home.

That's how it used to be.

These days it is still better at what I need it for (learning, research), but it isn't orders of magnitude anymore and certain people tending bugzilla for Mozilla are borderline hostile, see for example here https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1332447#c171

Re: Firefox lost 50M users since 2019

#356

Post by vetinari »

saurik wrote: post #72
roenxi wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Mozilla corporation has to contend with a substantial portion of their community that thinks a $1,000 donation (an unrelated donation, no less) weighs similarly on the scales as something like 20 years in service vigorously supporting the open internet and a long history of technical success. They're going to struggle to focus on their mission with friends like that.

So let's say you work for Mozilla and you are gay, or your sibling is gay, or your best friend is gay, or hell: you just are willing to care about people who aren't that close to you and you know that some people somewhere are assuredly gay; and so now, you have to come in to the office every day to work under a guy who, sure, has made an invaluable contribution to the web... but also actively dislikes gay people and…

So just because you are gay, or your sibling is gay, or your best friend is gay... then totally unrelated people are not allowed to have their opinions, because you don't approve them?

Re: Firefox lost 50M users since 2019

#357

Post by littlecranky67 »

dontblink wrote: post #338
read_if_gay_ wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may also not exclusively be anticompetitive behavior from Chrome, but just Mozilla's stewardship of Firefox. They constantly manage to generate shitstorms around updates (how does this never happen with Chrome?) and then the plain disregard/making fun of user feedback [1] is just a kick in the teeth. For me at least, that's in large part why I moved to Chrome. [1]: https://web.archive.org/web/20200731211652/https:…

It does happen with Chrome. See the whole ublock origin debacle. I guess it doesn't impact end users as greatly or maybe Firefox users are more vocal about changes? Also: yikes on that link. I would feel disillusioned if my feedback was responded to in that manner. Sometimes empathy can get you so much further.

Whats that debacle about? I'm using latest Chrome and am still using uBlock origin.

Re: Firefox lost 50M users since 2019

#358

Post by mmis1000 »

judge2020 wrote: post #149
eitland wrote: post #143

I have contacted local authorities twice about anti competitive behavior from Chrome. If two - three other Norwegians do the same that should start to look like an earthquake ;-) Same if ten - twenty Germans or Brits or French do the same. I would mention: 1. that some of their web properties (calendar and YouTube) have been intentionally incompatible with Firefox as evidenced by how well they work in Firefox if one…

> anti competitive behavior Have some examples? On Desktop, I don't see any, but I would get if you mean Mobile since Chrome is still the default browser there for Android.

Google sheets used to be broken `BASED ON USER AGENT`.

https://support.google.com/docs/thread/18235069/google-sheet...

After i found that spoof browser agent fixed it. They locked the thread coincidentally and the bug is also fixed coincidentally a few days after.

I don't know if it is really a coincident, but I definitely have 0 trust of them after it.

Re: Firefox lost 50M users since 2019

#359

Post by littlecranky67 »

judge2020 wrote: post #149
eitland wrote: post #143

I have contacted local authorities twice about anti competitive behavior from Chrome. If two - three other Norwegians do the same that should start to look like an earthquake ;-) Same if ten - twenty Germans or Brits or French do the same. I would mention: 1. that some of their web properties (calendar and YouTube) have been intentionally incompatible with Firefox as evidenced by how well they work in Firefox if one…

> anti competitive behavior Have some examples? On Desktop, I don't see any, but I would get if you mean Mobile since Chrome is still the default browser there for Android.

Youtube on iOS is deliberately changed in a way that it breaks playing video/audio in the background. iOS is capable of that by default with HTML5, but Youtube sells background play as a paid feature.

Re: Firefox lost 50M users since 2019

#360

Post by eitland »

foepys wrote: post #181
Nextgrid wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if Firefox was genuinely better it could win via word of mouth; whether it’s power users recommending it or people having it on their work computers (because their IT mandates it) and wanting the same great browser at home. The problem is that Firefox is basically a Chrome clone at this point, all the way down to the privacy-invading features such as telemetry, so using it nowadays is more down to ideology than a…

How could Mozilla ever compete in technical merit nowadays? Google is siphoning nearly all talent by paying them insanely huge amounts of money. Web is part of Google's core business and they will pour every little penny into it if it means they can be one step ahead and force others to follow them. How can Mozilla, a non-profit, compete with that? Even freaking Microsoft gave up! I'm insanely impressed with Mozilla…

Get back the extension API (not the exact same but a modern equivalent).

Keep bugging competition authorities to punish Google harshly over the abusive behavior we've seen lately.

I'm using Firefox for now but I admit the moment someone forks it and have a good security foundation I'll start using it and donating to it.

I'm fed up with Mozilla thinking everything else they donis more important than their main income source and main contribution to Internet.

(Yes, I keep posting like this against both Mozilla and Google in the hope that they will one day improve or more realistically to increase the chance that someone else steps up. As WhatsApp proved before they were gutted by Facebook there is a large market that wants privacy and is willing to accept smaller problems and also pay for it.)

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