Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus • Hacker News Board

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#351

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 1:24 PM UTC

thinkindie wrote: post #167

zpeti wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word radicalized is also way overused. Orban is seen as hateful or radicalising because he is against illegal immigration. He has made a big marketing point about this. But that doesn't mean that there aren't legitimate concerns about illegal immigration that Hungarians might have. Just because Western european nations have decided they don't mind if they add 1-2% yearly to their populations of a culturally total…

and just to clarify - joining the EU is an exercise of free will. Countries are met with some conditions and it's their decision to join or not. This is valid for both Hungary and Poland. If they don't want to be part of EU any longer I think Brexit showed the way, and all the consequences of that.

I seem to recall the UK Brexit and that freewill argument was almost immediately challenged by calls for next rounds of referenda ( presumably until the right decision is reached by the population ). As always, it is democracy and free will as long as it is exercised in a way the conforms to rather specific view of what the outcome should be.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#352

Post by bb101 » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 1:25 PM UTC

NicoJuicy wrote: post #185

Hokusai wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> EU is completely helpless against rouge states There is a point where politics depend on good intent. It does not matter if it is the EU, USA or China. If there is a part of the population that is radicalized and hate rhetoric is used that will destabilize any society. The main defense against this situation is that it does not work to improve citizens lives. It only benefits a small part of society and it will mak…

As far as I'm aware ( source Hungarian people), entire families voted for him because he was strongly opposing migrants. All the other shit he does, they deem less important. It's ridiculous. Hungary should go out of the EU or be forced out. The lack of obeying rules and abusing subsidies for own gain should be enough reason. Hungarians should outweigh pro's and cons, it's already a decade...

I think Hungary should be very much kept in the EU, so the EU can continue to exert its influence. The funding taps should be turned off however, and only turned on again subject to demonstrable and verified improvements.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#353

Post by bwb » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 1:25 PM UTC

reader_mode wrote: post #24

bwb wrote: post #11

I always am amazed by how many people value their nation over larger groups of human beings who are just like them... isn't it time to up our game as humans and start thinking bigger? Why not abolish nations within the EU and just become the EU with different provinces? Nationalism is an ancient mentality, get rid of it and start moving into larger groups who can do more. I keep reading about the North American Allia…

>Why not abolish nations within the EU and just become the EU with different provinces? Because outside of your bubble nobody wants this. A random person from Bulgaria is going to have a very different culture from a random person from Netherlands. What do you think happens with power in such conglomerate ? If you want to see what happens when you create a forced conglomerate of different nations (but still more simi…

It requires people to become more than what they are now, the same as when we didn't have nationalism and people made that leap "up"...

People need to think beyond these tribes and up it a level. A random person from Bulgaria is very similar to a random person from Netherlands. I welcome the day that our tribe is Earth...

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#354

Post by hutzlibu » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 1:26 PM UTC

ramphastidae wrote: post #340

hutzlibu wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. And turkey is also very active in creating more refugees by supporting islamists in syria and active combat raids. And is using the mass of refugees regulary to blackmail the EU.

Turkey did not start the war in Syria, but they do share a border with them, and have a responsibility to secure their border from a failed state. They took in more refugees than any other country in the world, which has a massive impact on their economy and security. Requesting economic aid from the EU to deal with this is not blackmail. The EU benefits massively from keeping Syrians in Turkey, because Syrians prima…

"and have a responsibility to secure their border from a failed state."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_involvement_in_the_Syr...

So you think supporting islamist militias is helping stabilize said neighbor state?

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#355

Post by nix23 » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 1:27 PM UTC

egeozcan wrote: post #302

bluthund wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can circle back to the psycho analysis later if you so desire, but I'll be sticking to the topic at hand for the time being. You seem to have made a connection between nationalism and being furious about other people. I respectfully disagree that there is a necessary relationship there. I have no ill will against other people. I would like people who share my culture to govern me, and I would not like people of my…

> I would like people who share my culture to govern me, and I would not like people of my culture governing people of a different culture. When did this ever happen in history? People diverge all the time, that's how we have so many cultures.

>People diverge all the time, that's how we have so many cultures.

Lightly categorized in so called country's?

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#356

Post by nix23 » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 1:28 PM UTC

_hzrk wrote: post #307

bluthund wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can circle back to the psycho analysis later if you so desire, but I'll be sticking to the topic at hand for the time being. You seem to have made a connection between nationalism and being furious about other people. I respectfully disagree that there is a necessary relationship there. I have no ill will against other people. I would like people who share my culture to govern me, and I would not like people of my…

Globalism is inevitable, you cannot stop it. You should rather get used to it. The fact that you get anxious by ideas penetrating your culture means that globalisation works. It is like my Romanian grandfather telling me how bankers should have been punished in 2008. Which would have never and it will never happen because that's how the world works. The alternatives are far too costly and our global capitalism does n…

>Globalism is inevitable, you cannot stop it.

If corona told us anything, then this is probably not true anymore.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#357

Post by bobthechef » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 1:29 PM UTC

barneygale wrote: post #178

zpeti wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word radicalized is also way overused. Orban is seen as hateful or radicalising because he is against illegal immigration. He has made a big marketing point about this. But that doesn't mean that there aren't legitimate concerns about illegal immigration that Hungarians might have. Just because Western european nations have decided they don't mind if they add 1-2% yearly to their populations of a culturally total…

There would be little reason to migrate if those European nations didn't exploit corruption and poor labour/environmental standards in other countries. Allowing free movement of goods and services without free movement of people entrenches inequality and makes the problem worse. Time to look at whether global capitalism is culturally "good", rather than shifting the blame to desperate people seeking safety or a bette…

> There would be little reason to migrate if those European nations didn't exploit

Which European nations did this and how? Did Hungary, Poland, Lithuania, etc. do this? If you're talking about colonialism, then if Western Europe has a guilty conscience, let them pay the price. Don't punish nations that had nothing to do with any of that and who themselves were oppressed under foreign imperialism during that time. (Though two wrongs don't make a right, so I would avoid the insane rhetoric of "reparative cultural and national self-destruction".)

Besides, the idea that the world is poor because of European nations is a simplistic claim and the sum benefits and injustices. These weren't typically wealthy nations that those European devils colonized, even if they later took part in exploiting or mistreating those peoples. Odd that only the West receives that attention and no one else.

> Allowing free movement of goods and services without free movement of people entrenches inequality and makes the problem worse

Inequality is not the problem. Poverty and unjust treatment are.

Also, free migration actually does actually make the world worse. It leads to the destruction of the host nation by flooding it with people of a different culture beyond a rate at which they can be absorbed, but also the draining of the origin nations of labor, expertise, etc. It's bad for everyone. Maybe corporations benefit in some myopic way. They're the one who will print the bleeding heart op eds that tug at sentimentalist moralizers.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#358

Post by fallingknife » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 1:29 PM UTC

bogomipz wrote: post #350

underscore_ku wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU is as helpless as USA. what would US of A do with a rogue Texas? nothing

You might want to look up the American Civil War. It lasted from 1861 to 1865 and some 600K people died. That's what happened the last time any states threatened to secede from the Union in the US of A. It's also a pretty well-known bit of history.

The war started well after states started seceding and even then only in response to a military attack by the south. So it's not quite the example you portray it to be.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#359

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 1:30 PM UTC

b0rsuk wrote: post #183

inglor_cz wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Polak, Węgier, dwa bratanki, i do szabli, i do szklanki." (Pole and Hungarian — two brothers, good for saber and for glass.) Some countries in the EU have better relations than others. Czechs and Slovaks, the three Baltic nations, and Poland and Hungary. Things must get really bad before they will stop having each other's back on the international scene. This is a historical and diplomatic fact that must be taken in…

Poland has common geopolitical interests with nordic countries like Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark. Hungarian strategy of playing both sides can work because Hungary is not between the hammer and the anvil. And the languages are radically different. "Gulasz" and "Dobosz" are not enough. If you ask 100 Poles on the street, you won't find 1 that can count to ten in Hungarian. Finnish is an equally hard language and t…

I don't want to make too much of this, but it is possible that you are a part of or have rather eclectic social circle. My personal advice would not be to extrapolate to the entire society.

That said, I would welcome a citation supporting this assertion. My personal experience is very different and I do not want to swap anecdata.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#360

Post by afshin » Tue, Jul 20, 2021, 1:30 PM UTC

Hokusai wrote: post #60

poisonborz wrote: post #28

If there is one single lasting international effect of Orbán and his party, it's how he demonstrated how EU is completely helpless against rouge states (as well). The delicate political balance of its parliamental politics make it impossible to react to any complex, even if lethal threats. The EU funds and fuels a Belorussian-style regime in its own heartland for a decade now, and all they can do are angry notices an…

> EU is completely helpless against rouge states There is a point where politics depend on good intent. It does not matter if it is the EU, USA or China. If there is a part of the population that is radicalized and hate rhetoric is used that will destabilize any society. The main defense against this situation is that it does not work to improve citizens lives. It only benefits a small part of society and it will mak…

> The main defense against this situation is that it does not work to improve citizens lives. It only benefits a small part of society and it will make the rest suffer.

This pattern is attenuated when there's a reliable external source of energy. Hungary is not a closed system that will decay into entropy. It has regular funding from the EU which allows the disequilibrium to continue.