Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987) • Hacker News Board

Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#351

Post by Chris2048 » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 4:47 PM UTC

hughrr wrote: post #282

Tycho wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is EE so bad? On the surface it looks like a degree with a strong grounding in mathematics, exposure to programming, the discipline of engineering, and a diverse range of applications across industry. It kind of seems like the ideal degree if you want to hire someone. I'm always baffled when I hear stories like this.

Well for me the degree was of mediocre usefulness. The job I had to sit in an office on a factory floor with no windows, fully airgapped on my own 7 hours a day doing test automation and designing test fixtures mostly. That was the entry position for us back then really. I had to wear full static gear head to toe which was hot and uncomfortable and smelled weird. This was broken up twice a day by some shitty machine…

Why would test automation / design require static gear?

Did you do the testing on actual hardware?

Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#352

Post by kls » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 5:03 PM UTC

donatj wrote: post #49

I don’t hear much about it these days, but circa 2004 when I was going into computer science I had multiple teachers and a guidance counselor warn me that all the jobs would be going to India and tell me I should pursue something else. This seemed to be very much the prevailing wisdom of the time. I pursued it anyway as it was my passion. I was one of five students in my program that had been a huge multi-campus prog…

It really was the prevailing wisdom of the time. I entered the job market in 92, a few months after CERN released their browser. I knew what was coming when I saw the web for the first time, but the only jobs at the time where custom desktop software for businesses. It was the same after the .com bust which is right around where you picked up. 04 and 05 where really bad years to be in the industry, as the only jobs left in the industry where internal corporate software gigs. Which meant most of the employment opportunities where not, out in CA, but rather in sporadic areas around the country.

As well, there was a waves of offshoring, so again the common wisdom was do not go into computing. With that being said, I hade the fortune of working with a company that was early to mobile, and was working with Palm on mobile web apps around 2000, so when the crash came, though I lost that job due to the company closing, I knew mobile was right around the corner and went back to grinding out internal corporate software for a few years.

The offshore projects started to fail to deliver and then Steve came back and launched the iPhone. My experience is software is a boom bust economy. It's been more robust this run and everyone learned that outsourcing was not the win-win they thought it was going to be. In the meantime software ate the world so there is not enough hands to do the work that is out there and to your point, a whole generation was discouraged from entering the market. If there is any market that has a bad track record of employment forecast software dev has to be top of the heap.

Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#353

Post by me_me_me » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 5:06 PM UTC

jasonkester wrote: post #344

me_me_me wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I have one of those? That seems to be available only in US for handful of VERY vocal people.

Sure. I bet those vocal people would be happy to explain in detail what they did to get those jobs. It’s not easy, and you may need to actually go to the place where those jobs are. But each of those companies will hire thousands of people at those compensation level in the next year. And the people they hire were in no way exceptional (or different to you) before they started down the path to getting where they are…

I am sure if I only buy their book on how to get those jobs I will get one.

Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#354

Post by musesum » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 5:07 PM UTC

fukd wrote: post #65

musesum wrote: post #55

By 2001, three companies I co-founded went under. One was going public in April 2000 (oops), plus a couple others failed after 911. I wound up living in my car and writing code in a cafe. There were quite a few of us. The owner was sympathetic. You could buy a tea and share a table for hours. Refills were free. One web developer said he was changing careers to house cleaning. Oddly, it was quite liberating.

Thats bad. Hope you are doing good now

Actually quite nice; still using some of that code.

Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#355

Post by qmmmur » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 5:08 PM UTC

Dumblydorr wrote: post #303

qmmmur wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Giving how technologically grounded most music degrees are now I don't think it's that unusual that positions often move into programming for work

I don't think most music degrees are technologically grounded. I have a degree and courses in music from 2 major universities and both of them were reticent to teach about music software. Music is a traditional field, there's a lot of older professors hanging on to tenure who listen, write by hand, and generally rely on their ears and aural sense, rather than tech. These folks could definitely use software, but why?…

Well, in my experience as an educator and student over the last... 12 years or so... degrees that universities offer are overwhelmingly comprised of students wanting to study electronic music/audio engineering or some hybridisation of those (sound composition/screen composition). Orchestral degrees are becoming far less popular.

Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#356

Post by qmmmur » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 5:09 PM UTC

lordnacho wrote: post #339

qmmmur wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you need to caveat where your experience is from. In the uk and where I am courses are practically grounded and you spend a lot of your time in the final part of your degree during a practical placement. As a result I think you get a much less theoretical background.

I did my engineering degree in the UK, and it was mostly theory. I did do a placement as well, but the course itself seemed to be a tour of various science subjects, plus math. I mean I built a working radio and a mini bridge in my first year, but you didn't get credit for anything other than the exams. All in all it seemed like a whole bunch of vignettes. Here's how structures work, here's how electric circuits work…

That's strange. I know students who had placements where it was all practical such as working for the BBC in one of their audio engineering teams for example or working as a programmer for a game studio. Didn't really seem like an extension of university at all.

Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#357

Post by raducu » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 5:20 PM UTC

Fnoord wrote: post #223

raducu wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really sorry for the relationship you have with your father. I've had similar experiences, but not as drastic as yours -- my father didn't allow me to use my bike for YEARS as a punishment for smashing my bike as a 10 year old (faulty chain, impulsive child). I guess this I would call the real toxic masculinity. Unfortunately there's nothing much you can do, except build your life around it, keep your boundaries…

That's a harsh punishment. What kind of effect did it have on you? I remember I biked to school at that age (~10-15 min). If I damaged one of my tools, such as my bike or my shoes, it'd look damaged, and I disliked that. But I had to cope with that. That was a punishment by itself. I wasn't able to get a job as system administrator (even though I believe I'd liked it) because I can't program. I tried it various times…

Among other stuff, it contributed to my BPD, of which I've been 75% cured (but I did have some 6 years of psychotherapy).

I'm still unlearning the harsh/punitive internal voice, still dealing with people pushing my guilt buttons.

It might sound hypocritical, but I'd trade all the material help my parents gave for the freedom to be ME.

Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#358

Post by hnfong » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 5:34 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #346

hnfong wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This corroborates my long-term suspicion -- all those talk about provably correctness of programs is basically a way to gate keep people from entering the industry. I mean, of the millions(?) of programmers out there churning out code, how many % of them actually prove their programs correct? Despite what all the academia-types say, I firmly believe that programming is at most 50% math/logic, and the other 50% is lit…

"50% math/logic" can account for a lot of proving correctness. And it's not even hard, even writing your programs in a modern type-safe language will put you way ahead of the pack.

I'm not saying the math is insignificant. It's just that, if you agree in principle that a significant part of coding is making the code legible to other people, the question still remains -- why is math usually a required part of a CS degree, but you never hear CS degrees require training of technical(?) writing skills?

Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#359

Post by Chris2048 » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 5:37 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #117

chii wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the decision makers that are convinced GUI data engineering tools are the future. The same train of thought leads to the idea that you can produce good software with mediocre developers by using processes, coding rules and checklists and "development methodology" like agile.

To be fair, Agile is not about leveraging mediocre developers - it's about enabling a handful of your best, most experienced hackers and architects (the fabled "two-pizzas team") to work under the best possible conditions, because the proponents of Agile had internalized the lesson that trying to scale up large teams of mediocre devs is a fool's errand.

Agile in it's original form - yes. Many everyday biz versions of agile et al - No.

Fundamentally, dev is something to negotiate with, cooperatively, versus commanding "do what I say"-style. Many businesses are unable or unwilling to do away with this top-down hierarchy, hence agile will never succeed there.

The agile they practise instead is "Agile, but without actually relinquishing top-down control".

TBH, I think what we are really missing is for the development team to be a contract team (ala Accenture) that can implement agile via official mediums e.g. pushback via contractually negotiation, backlog prioritisation via contract pricing ("we can do that, but this is what it'll cost").

Re: Students flee field as computer 'fad fades' (1987)

#360

Post by hughrr » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 5:46 PM UTC

Chris2048 wrote: post #351

hughrr wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well for me the degree was of mediocre usefulness. The job I had to sit in an office on a factory floor with no windows, fully airgapped on my own 7 hours a day doing test automation and designing test fixtures mostly. That was the entry position for us back then really. I had to wear full static gear head to toe which was hot and uncomfortable and smelled weird. This was broken up twice a day by some shitty machine…

Why would test automation / design require static gear? Did you do the testing on actual hardware?

Board level test ie boundary scan, burn in and ageing on actual hardware. The assemblies I was testing were up to $40k a piece.