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Europe's Software Problem

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Re: Europe's Software Problem

#351

Post by arduinomancer »

pwthornton wrote: post #193

Some of the stuff in this article may be fine, and trying to raise money is certainly harder in Europe, but I thought one of the biggest drags on Europe's tech industry is poor pay for engineers and other tech talent? In the U.S., going into a tech career can be one of the best ways to make a high salary quickly -- especially without needing an advanced degree. Without this incentive, you'll have a lot less people pu…

I think its a feedback loop.

--> better engineers

--> more successful/innovative company

--> company generates more revenue

--> company can pay higher

--> better engineers

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#352

Post by gizmondo »

fvdessen wrote: post #213
pilsetnieks wrote: post #25

I take offense at such massive overgeneralizations as "Europe lacks imagination." What it lacks is freely flowing funding such that risky enterprises can be funded even if 1 out of ten or 1 out of hundred actually are successful. This kills business models which cannot show any profit whatsoever, and a large portion of the remainder are killed by data regulations forbidding "alternate paths of monetization" (to put i…

The reason the US has freely flowing funding is because the VC has an immense amount of cash from the previous generations of successful Unicorns. So why was it (and still is) easier to raise unicorns in the USA ? The thing that separate the internet economy with the traditional is the massive network effects that makes it a winner take all game. And at that game the USA has a massive home advantage with a huge cultu…

> Well the Chinese and the Russian could, by banning American monopolies from their own markets, which let them built monopolies on their own, & then attempt to conquer the rest of the world with them.

Russia didn't ban American monopolies, they were outcompeted fair and square by the more focused local companies. For some time, at least. It took years for Google to catch up with Yandex in search quality in Russian language, and Facebook's clone is imo still better than Facebook itself in every way, no wonder it's still more popular there.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#353

Post by goodpoint »

whimsicalism wrote: post #316
WalterBright wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gates/Allen/Bezos/Jobs/Ellison/Google/Netflix/etc did not inherit their wealth.

Of the top 15, 5 inherited. You are right that billionaires are less likely to have inherited wealth.

...but they are still extremely likely to come from families with very strong political connections. Wealth is the byproduct.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#354

Post by goodpoint »

tasogare wrote: post #167
pilsetnieks wrote: post #25

I take offense at such massive overgeneralizations as "Europe lacks imagination." What it lacks is freely flowing funding such that risky enterprises can be funded even if 1 out of ten or 1 out of hundred actually are successful. This kills business models which cannot show any profit whatsoever, and a large portion of the remainder are killed by data regulations forbidding "alternate paths of monetization" (to put i…

Not to mention a lot of very skilled European engineers move to US (sometimes Canada). It's easy to brag about talent when being on the receiving side of the brain drain.

Large US companies to have offices over the world.

It's extremely common to siphon the most promising projects or ideas to the HQ. Keep the golden egg hen close to home.

Once the project becomes successful people will ignore or quickly forget where the idea came from.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#355

Post by mmarq »

kaba0 wrote: post #331
mmarq wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead I would argue that if the Americans opened their borders, a huge fraction of European tech workers/professionals will relocate there. I'd say that, as middle-class persons, they wouldn't subject themselves to the torture of getting a visa, which may also partially explain the rise of Berlin as a tech hub after Brexit.

Nonsense. You do realize that people don’t just relocate to another country let alone to another continent, especially when the benefits are questionable at best. Somewhat more pay, but for more expenses due to a ridiculous health-care, depending on location, it may very well be less safe, etc.

You may disagree, but “nonsense” sounds a bit excessive. An Italian or Spanish software developer earning 30K euros per annum would likely go to the US if they were offered an American salary. Many of those who went to the UK or to Germany (me included) would have crossed the Atlantic for the right offer.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#356

Post by kazen44 »

zerkten wrote: post #290
dgaaaaaaaaaa wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. But I think the problems are more nuanced. It is just harder to scale across EU than US. You'll need localization, marketing, customer support separately set up for different languages/countries.

As a data point, per user support costs (financial and other) are often much larger for European customers compared to the US or Asia. In my experience, it tends to be lower bump for consumer. Once you get into B2B or enterprise, European customers are significantly costlier to support than US equivalent. It's a combination of requirements specific to markets (EU mandates like GDPR are easier train a support team on…

as a european, this has not been my experience at all.

> It's a combination of requirements specific to markets (EU mandates like GDPR are easier train a support team on and build an escalation process), cultural expectations around handholding, not wanting to hear no for an answer unless it is delivered by an exec.

in my opinion, very little european teams (mostly italian, czech and german teams) care about hearing the answer from an executive. Also, what do you mean about handholding?

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#357

Post by kaba0 »

mmarq wrote: post #355
kaba0 wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense. You do realize that people don’t just relocate to another country let alone to another continent, especially when the benefits are questionable at best. Somewhat more pay, but for more expenses due to a ridiculous health-care, depending on location, it may very well be less safe, etc.

You may disagree, but “nonsense” sounds a bit excessive. An Italian or Spanish software developer earning 30K euros per annum would likely go to the US if they were offered an American salary. Many of those who went to the UK or to Germany (me included) would have crossed the Atlantic for the right offer.

So you are claiming that the only reason European developers don’t cross en mass is due to non-open borders?

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#358

Post by kazen44 »

odiroot wrote: post #287
selfhoster11 wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While also spending more money on various things, or having to spend them on privatised health care etc. It's not directly comparable. My point also discussed things like infrastructure and public services, which are often very neglected compared to their European counterparts.

Maybe if you only take San Francisco and New York City in consideration. USA has famously cheaper life than EU (especially gas and food). Not that I would trade places.

mind you gas prices are heavily subsidized in the US. The same goes for food.

Also, from experience i have found vegetables to be ludicrously expensive in the USA, the same goes for beer and wine.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#359

Post by throwaway894345 »

sschueller wrote: post #333
throwaway894345 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US has those things and it's turning into a "third world country with a Gucci belt" I get the distinct impression that people who liken the US to a third world country are from one particular spot on the political spectrum. This seems like political rhetoric, not a summary of some level-headed analysis. Inequality, crime, etc in the US are certainly problems, but that seems like a low bar for the "third world c…

Generally I define a 3rd world country as a place that has a lot of inequality, corruption across the board, poor to no worker protection, failing and antiquated infrastructure, no free access to health care, high incarceration rate, persecution of journalists, a large working poor population with no ability to move up the social ladder, etc. Which one of those does the US not have?

Those are all relative and obviously cherry picked. If you need to cherry pick and exaggerate wildly it’s not a very convincing argument IMO.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#360

Post by kazen44 »

opportune wrote: post #259
mmarq wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software development and other tech jobs were low-status professions in Europe (the UK being a partial exception) up until a few years ago. Once a friend told me some thing like "it is not fair that you make more money than I do, I have a degree in literature and, with all due respect, you are just a guy that works with computers". This was not an absurd conversation to hear anywhere in continental Europe in the earl…

This is something I’ve noticed working with European people and also traveling. I think there is a cycle here where because working with software is considered low status, many good software people leave, and lots of smart people probably do not go into the field at all unless they truly love software. This would tend to drive the talent pool down, IMO, which keeps away good software jobs, keeping it low status. In t…

> In the US for example writing software is usually considered wholly different from “IT” whereas in Europe IT encompasses both. That’s probably another thing bringing its status down. You are grouping software engineers with people plugging in printers and solving Karen’s support ticket (no offense IT people).

oh boy, if you think IT is just pluggin in printers and fixing easy support tickets you are easily mistaken.

What about network and system engineers? Those who keep the cloud and global internet running? Those are considered IT (atleast in europe) and are definitely not low quality, easy to learn jobs.

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