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Why we should end the data economy

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351–360 of 390 posts

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a wedding to make sure everyone closest to me knew who I was sleeping with (Emily as is already public record). It took a fair bit of time and money to coordinate and hold that event. When people ask how I'm doing, I tell them and that includes whether my problems are impacting my daily routines and needs. (Not lately) I've shared the results of my IQ tests and had plenty of discussions about the validity and l…

Good of you to offer concrete examples. I don't mean these as ad hominems since I don't know you, more as counter examples: > I've shared the results of my IQ tests (145-160+) I wonder if the part of the population with > I speed when conditions let that be safe. Admitting to breaking the law is an excuse for higher insurance premiums and for the police to hassle you. > I suffer depression This is one of the few rela…

You have my gratitude for this comment. I don't take it as ad hominem at all but rather excellent challenges and realities that move the conversation forward. These are good examples of the privilege I mentioned and I appreciate them being raised.

I agree that there is a long way to go before pervasive feelings of safety will exist. You also seem right that the transition, if we choose it, will more positively be consensual and gradual. This conversation seems to be often spoken of with binary models. Further, the preference clusters are implied to be in opposition so I hoped to offer a counter to that in case it might have a positive effect over the long term.

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The funny thing is that the rise of cloud computing coincides with the rise of really powerful cheap personal computation, you'd think it would be the opposite.

I'm not so sure about that. Smartphones are a massive leap forward in low-power/energy-efficiency, but my 2013 desktop machine (KGPE-D16) still creams every smartphone ever manufactured on any metric other than power consumption. I'm kinda tired of hearing nontechnical people congratulate themselves on having a "supercomputer" in their pocket.

Compared to the supercomputers of the 1980s (if I remember right my dad had an old copy of Journal of the American Meteorological Society I found as a kid, with an ad for Cray talking about one gigaflop being state of the art), they're not wrong.

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a great list. SO many times people have said to me, "Let them track me, I've got nothing to hide." And you hit them with a few things off this list and they immediately change their mind. There should be a tinurl for website I can send people to that shows a simple list of all the ways personal information can be used.

Yes, great list. But salary and bank balance should probably be added.

I feel like there should be more outcry for credit bureaus and ISPs having even more life-affecting information than what is listed.

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#354
post #54

No one sane would ever want their relatives, friends, work colleagues, and neighbors to be able to know (quoting from the OP): > who you sleep with because both you and the person you share your bed with keep your phones nearby > whether you sleep soundly at night or whether your troubles are keeping you up > whether you pick up your phone in the middle of the night and search for things like "loan repayment" > your…

>No one sane would ever want their relatives // People close to you probably know all these things already. Even if you don't. >No one sane is OK with corporations, governments, and other third parties being able to obtain and save this information either // This is a popular view here. I don't think it's true of the population as whole.

I think it is true of the population as a whole (when the subject of such tracking is brought up most people are not comfortable with it.) But the population as a whole has the attitude of “what can you do” and aren’t willing to give up their fun apps and smart phone in exchange for this tracking going away; truth be told neither am I.

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#355
post #54

No one sane would ever want their relatives, friends, work colleagues, and neighbors to be able to know (quoting from the OP): > who you sleep with because both you and the person you share your bed with keep your phones nearby > whether you sleep soundly at night or whether your troubles are keeping you up > whether you pick up your phone in the middle of the night and search for things like "loan repayment" > your…

I actually look through that and see quite a few things on that list I would be fine with my friends and relatives knowing. The difference between them and my work colleagues is that they are people who truly have my best interests at heart.

As opposed to most companies that are tracking me to try to take advantage of me.

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#356
post #10

We need to go back to the TV model. I mean we sold things back in 1995 right? You go to a website about babies, you get baby ads. You go to a website about electrified fences, you get ads for trucks, tractors, backhoe rentals (even in your area because of your IP address - but that's it) It's damn near equivalent to local / cable TV.

Does anybody know if targeted ads based on tracking even work? Are they worth all the extra cost and complexity compared to traditional ads? It doesn’t seem like it. Half the time I see a super-targeted ad, it’s for a product I already purchased. Also, what ever happened to showing ads to people who aren’t already interested in your product to expand your brand and maybe bring in new customers? The current ad model f…

I'm surprised that most people don't understand this. It's not about being more effective. It's all about have sales or conversion attribution to be able to do stuff like A/B testing.

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#357
post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I never heard any convincing argument about why privacy has value. You have either _never_ had to keep a secret (which I highly doubt, unless you happen to be a literal child) or you simply aren't arguing in good faith. Assuming that you are arguing in good faith, let's consider a potential reason why someone might value their privacy: Some people are born attracted to the same-sex (gay, lesbian, bi, pan, etc.). Th…

>There are some countries where being gay is a criminal offense; So that is the actual problem, not the privacy.

Without some expectation of privacy it would have been impossible for people to gather together with others who had been similarly criminalized.

Without those gatherings, organizing against anti-gay propaganda (equating it to pedophilia, claiming it would be the downfall of civilization, etc.) would have been impossible and it's unlikely that the laws criminalizing homosexuality would have ever been changed.

If you kill privacy then you'll also kill the ability of marginalized groups to organize against any future oppression.

I doubt you actually believe that privacy doesn't matter however, because you're posting here under a pseudonym and haven't linked any social media accounts or anything which could reveal "private" details like your full legal name, place of residence/work, etc.

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#358
post #54

No one sane would ever want their relatives, friends, work colleagues, and neighbors to be able to know (quoting from the OP): > who you sleep with because both you and the person you share your bed with keep your phones nearby > whether you sleep soundly at night or whether your troubles are keeping you up > whether you pick up your phone in the middle of the night and search for things like "loan repayment" > your…

This is a great list. SO many times people have said to me, "Let them track me, I've got nothing to hide." And you hit them with a few things off this list and they immediately change their mind. There should be a tinurl for website I can send people to that shows a simple list of all the ways personal information can be used.

Framing seems to matter. If someone was following you all around town and you could physically see them taking notes I don't know a single person that wouldn't feel uncomfortable with this. But as soon as you can't see that person, people care less. But we all essentially have a world class private investigator following us at all times and this is a bit weird to think about.

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simply assigning a price to an activity doesn't solve the ethical and moral issues that can arise from that activity. Having a price for something doesn't exactly help victims of human trafficking (whether the illegal organ trade, prostitution or anything else). What can help those victims is regulation and aggressive criminal prosecution of anyone who seeks to gain from the suffering of others. Unless people actuall…

The difference that ownership would give is consent . Western liberal democracies are based on the idea that you can do what you want as long as all parties agree to it. I willingly give my personal information over to a variety of firms knowing what they do with it, because I value the services I receive more. It's not your place to say whether that's okay or not, because it doesn't affect you. Human trafficking + c…

> The difference that ownership would give is consent. Western liberal democracies are based on the idea that you can do what you want as long as all parties agree to it.

No, there are things that two parties cannot legally agree to do even when there is a stated agreement between those parties.

Most of these things aren't legal because society has recognized the immense harm or potential for harm that they have.

For example, you can't legally sign yourself into slavery, nor could you (as a minor) sign a contract with an adult which would make sex legal; even if all parties say that they agree to it.

The slow destruction of privacy is creating situations which have the potential for immense harm for specific people around the world (e.g. people who criticize certain governments). To ignore these sorts of situations whenever there's a discussion on privacy is foolish at best, and maliciously disingenuously at worst.

> I willingly give my personal information over to a variety of firms [...] It's not your place to say whether that's okay or not, because it doesn't affect you.

It absolutely can affect me (or anyone else) if some of that information reveals details about anyone who isn't you. This is exactly the case with (e.g.) all of the social-graph information that Facebook collects. It doesn't matter if someone went through the process of deleting their account if information about them is still being collected by proxy.

That's not to say that any data that could reveal information about someone needs to be treated as though it "belongs" to all parties, but does mean that claiming some form of ownership over the data is not at all straightforward and that merely using the idea of ownership over data is unlikely to address many of the issues that have arisen from mass collection of data on people.

> Human trafficking + consent = immigration.

No. That is entirely wrong. Human trafficking is, by definition, done without informed consent. Stating that just "adding consent to the equation" makes it into immigration is completely ignorant of the motivations, realities and harms of that particularly disgusting criminal enterprise.

The problems with human trafficking don't arise because someone "didn't consent to something"; they arise because of the deliberately-engineered power imbalance between criminal organizations and their victims and the intention of forcing people into indentured servitude and forcing them to make money for the criminals.

> Organ trade + consent = organ donation.

Also no. Organ donation is (or should be) done without any sort of financial benefit to the donor. It's done that way to prevent the organ trade from flourishing. This is exactly the point I was making that assigning a "value" to something doesn't suddenly remove or negate the harms that that thing can cause. In fact, in the case of organ donation, there are a lot of rules which have been set up to explicitly prohibit someone from buying a human organ, specifically because of the known harm that the organ trade does.

> And yes, there should be a practical way to revoke access to data. There are ways to accomplish this technologically [...] We just don't use them yet, for the most part.

There are many ways of collecting aggregate data about populations that don't have to result in individual privacy being destroyed. They aren't used because, under current laws, it's more profitable to just collect all the data and not worry about preventing it from being abused; because there aren't any real penalties for companies and individuals who cause harm by gathering/selling/losing control of this data.

That is to say, it's not (and never has been) a technical issue. It's a political one which requires that people have an informed discussion that isn't heavily swayed by people with a vested interest (e.g. the online advertising industry, as I suspect that many people in this thread are in)

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#360
post #54

No one sane would ever want their relatives, friends, work colleagues, and neighbors to be able to know (quoting from the OP): > who you sleep with because both you and the person you share your bed with keep your phones nearby > whether you sleep soundly at night or whether your troubles are keeping you up > whether you pick up your phone in the middle of the night and search for things like "loan repayment" > your…

But the only penalty is “seeing” personalized ads.

It’s not exactly a problem for most people. Even I who’s privacy conscious don’t particularly care I block ads with ad blockers anyway.

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