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Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

reuters.com

351–360 of 688 posts

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#351
post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh no, Aave has credit delegation for no collateral loans and it uses OpenLaw contracts to secure a credit line. And there's also TrueFi https://truefi.io/ . And a bunch of others. You can get loans based on credit on Ethereum.

I can buy a car on credit using DeFi right now, is that what you're saying?

No, what I'm saying is that right now if you have a product on Ethereum with consistent cashflows, you can borrow money on credit from DAOs with large treasuries willing to lend them out using OpenLaw contracts as arbitration. The goal for these protocols is to expand this using decentralized identities and onchain credit scores.

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#352
post #11

As an outside observer, who has no crypto holdings at all, but is very deeply invested in the public stock market with a heavy weight on technology stocks... this doesn't look like a crash to me at all. It just looks like some steam being let off and old investors cash out and new investors get more comfortable with how much and where to invest. I consider crypto currency as it is to be an elaborate Ponzi scheme (per…

Bitcoin & Ether are both down -40% from a week to a month ago. Both of those are, in theory, large enough that investors "letting off some steam" shouldn't move them that much. If $SPY dropped 40% we'd all call it a crash. This isn't that different. Also unlike the stock market, crypto is under the delusion of being a viable currency. If USD or Euro dropped even 20% we'd start questioning if it's a recession, much le…

I don't care what $SPY does. Crypto market isn't the stock market. 40% crash in crypto -- even in bull markets -- doesn't mean shit.

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#353
post #11

As an outside observer, who has no crypto holdings at all, but is very deeply invested in the public stock market with a heavy weight on technology stocks... this doesn't look like a crash to me at all. It just looks like some steam being let off and old investors cash out and new investors get more comfortable with how much and where to invest. I consider crypto currency as it is to be an elaborate Ponzi scheme (per…

> I consider crypto currency as it is to be an elaborate Ponzi scheme (personal view) Off topic, but as someone with very little understanding of economics and no stake in cryptocurrency, I don't understand where "legitimate currency" ends and "Ponzi scheme" begins. I get that a Ponzi scheme is one which produces little or no value, and the majority of "earnings" are just wealth redistribution from the bottom of the…

> I don't understand what legitimate value ordinary currency produces. Can anyone help me understand?

I'm not sure what "legitimate value" means in this context, but the most terse way I can think of to answer what I think is the spirit of your question is that currencies can be used to pay taxes and so there is an inherent demand, if geographically limited, for them; since you have to pay taxes, it makes sense to settle debts denominated in that currency because you have a use case for it going forward. This inherent demand creates stability--and yes, everyone loves to talk about hyperinflation but at the same time hyperinflating currencies are usually those of governments who are not long for this world!

If you want to go further, I would submit that a modern currency is one where the supply of it can be controlled in response to other economic factors, and my personal position is that that control turns crashes and depressions into dips and recessions. But this is an opinion, and reasonable people could disagree. (Though candidly--in my experience, few who do, are.)

Cryptocurrencies instead function more as commodities, and as they have few enough actual uses that are not by and large self-contained ones that require a certain amount of willing participation for them to have value at all (whereas gold is pretty and doesn't corrode, you can eat wheat, etc.) they are functionally inherently speculative vehicles. They lack any sort of external stabilizing factor because nobody needs them and so as a "legitimate currency" I can't see why anyone would ever tack on the phrase "legitimate currency" to that sort of virtual porkbelly.

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#354
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cryptocurrency market is extremely volatile. This isn't that far from normal. I think you inadvertently confirm OPs point. Cryptocurrencies with their volatility cannot replace regular currencies.

Cryptocurrency is a misnomer. Most cryptos aren't trying to be currencies in the traditional sense. For example, RAI is a stablecoin on Ethereum that's not pegged to any fiat currencies. You can think of RAI as a stable form of ETH.

What does that even mean?

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#355
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crypto isn't a Ponzi scheme. A Ponzi scheme is form of fraud where funds from recent investors are used to pay (fictitious) profits to earlier investors. Say the ringleader claims a 10% profit. An early investor had deposited $100 and wants their $100. The ringleader had blown that investor's $100 on coke and hookers and gives him $110 from new investors. Crypto is more accurately a pyramid scheme. But then so are pr…

But at least gold has some inherent value, crypto is just math that is worth whatever the buyers/sellers think it should be. Stock in a company that stays in business will never go to zero as the company always has some value due to having revenue, but crypto has no real world floor (though unlikely to actually get to zero since someone will always buy).

The value of crypto is the access to the underlying network, which lets the users of that network transfer a known supply of tokens in a manner that's not forgeable, repudiable, confiscable, etc. or reliant on the permission of outside authorities. Final settlement takes an hour. It's worth whatever people will pay for that access.

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#356
post #11

As an outside observer, who has no crypto holdings at all, but is very deeply invested in the public stock market with a heavy weight on technology stocks... this doesn't look like a crash to me at all. It just looks like some steam being let off and old investors cash out and new investors get more comfortable with how much and where to invest. I consider crypto currency as it is to be an elaborate Ponzi scheme (per…

Read up on what a ponzi scheme actually is. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/ponzischeme.asp#:~:text... . I'm so tired of people saying crypto is a ponzi scheme. Maybe you think it's nonsense, or a bad investment, but it is not a ponzi scheme. > A Ponzi scheme is an investment fraud in which clients are promised a large profit at little to no risk. Companies that engage in a Ponzi scheme focus all of their energy…

Well, it's not a ponzi scheme. It's a MLM/pyramid style scheme. The idea over the long term is that there are more future investors than past investors and therefore there will be more money in the future than in the past. However, returns only last until growth limits have been reached. The problem is that everyone who buys Bitcoin wants those gains but they are exclusionary/rivalrous by definition.

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#357
post #11

As an outside observer, who has no crypto holdings at all, but is very deeply invested in the public stock market with a heavy weight on technology stocks... this doesn't look like a crash to me at all. It just looks like some steam being let off and old investors cash out and new investors get more comfortable with how much and where to invest. I consider crypto currency as it is to be an elaborate Ponzi scheme (per…

For context:

- The stock market crash of 1929 was a ~25% crash - The dot com bubble crash was also roughly a ~25% drop - The 2008 market crash was a roughly 20-30% drop

Various coins have now lost 10-30% of their value in the course of a couple of days. But it's just steam being let off? No big deal? Business as usual? If the same thing happened to the actual markets it would be another historic event.

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#358
post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin & Ether are both down -40% from a week to a month ago. Both of those are, in theory, large enough that investors "letting off some steam" shouldn't move them that much. If $SPY dropped 40% we'd all call it a crash. This isn't that different. Also unlike the stock market, crypto is under the delusion of being a viable currency. If USD or Euro dropped even 20% we'd start questioning if it's a recession, much le…

It doesn't seem like anyone believes cryptos are supposed to be currencies any more. All the talk around them is around them being a new, exciting, and potentially very lucrative investment class. If you go to Coinbase's front page, you see that you can buy and sell them, like you can with Robinhood. It's not trying to be a PayPal. The currency-ness does serve an important purpose. It helps bring in investment for th…

USDC, DAI, USDT are all used more than ever, orders of magnitude more

People dont have to talk about them as currencies because they just work

No different than cellular reception in an underground subway, you dont have to think about it anymore

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#359

Everyone should take some time now to learn about Tether, the high likelihood that it is in fact a Ponzi scheme, and that it poses a big systemic risk to the crypto exchanges and therefore the markets themselves [1]. People have been sounding the alarm on Tether for a long time now, but we’re finally getting some hard evidence now to back the allegations [2]. Don’t say you weren’t warned. [1] https://mobile.twitter.c…

As a noob who owns some bitcoin and ethereum (both stored on an exchange), how does tether being a scam (which I do believe in) affect me? I don't hold any tether myself.

Tether is used for the purchase of other cryptocurrency (i.e. creates demand). If more Tether has been created then dollars burned, then there has been artificial demand generated for cryptocurrency. Artificial demand, artificial prices. I think sometimes Tether's affect on the market is blown out of proportion, but it could have cooling effect on the trustworthiness of cryptocurrency and then exchanges used to facilitate trades.

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are undercollaterized / no collateral loans on Ethereum. You can build a credit score using decentralized identities. But yeah, keep dismissing it. You'll eventually use Ethereum or something like it whether you want to or not.

Ok, if that's the case why should we start using it now? What's the advantage other than fomo-driven speculatory gambling?

The advantage eventually will be easier ways to get funding for startups or businesses of all kinds. You need highly liquid markets in order to facilitate global finance at scale so that's where it's starting today. Rebuilding all of the financial primitives onchain. Why? Because composability of contracts onchain results in higher velocities of money; higher than whats possible in traditional finance. Imagine a world where you can list ownership of a stock and have that be immediately accessible by millions of people around the world regardless of jurisdiction 24/7 in highly liquid markets, all from a browser app. That's where this is going in my opinion.
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