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EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

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Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that cheating (if allowed) does not end up being a few people here and there.

Even if I were to believe you, so what? So a person gets a degree they don't deserve. Now they have all this student loan debt they can't pay off because they can't get and keep a job in their field because they didn't actually study. Or they do get a job and are able to keep it down, in which case, so what if they cheated? They're clearly capable. Let them keep doing the job. My solution: get rid of degrees complete…

I actually agree with you here, our incentive structures are flawed for sure.

The problem is, hiring is expensive, hiring mistakes are expensive, and new grads are a combination of “lack of signals” and “need lots of time to pan out”. The result is companies look for any possible signal - this more or less becomes a degree, and within the degree, the GPA. Thus incentivizing the student to get the degree with a high GPA by any means necessary, and companies will still give you a year to ramp up.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure it is. My first job outta college was for a defense contractor. It's perfectly fair to ask me why I left, or even more pointedly, "how do you feel about working for a defense contractor?" It's not an invitation to badmouth, it IS an invitation to discuss the ethical concerns involved, and why you found it acceptable (even if it's just that it was a meal ticket until you found something you objected to less)

Out of curiosity, how _do_ you feel about having worked for a defense contractor and, separately, working for one again? What tradeoffs have you experienced (good and bad) moving from defense to non-defense industry? I'm personally beginning to think there is a crossroads coming up for me and would value your perspectives if you have time to share. Thanks!

So this was about a decade ago and only a couple years of my life; I really wouldn't want to misrepresent my experience at the time as being reflective of what it's like now. So I'll just touch on the things that likely are the same now.

The bidding process for defense contracts means a lot of Big Design Up Front, and an inability to change things easily once signed, means that though there are attempts at being agile, they likely involve only the technical delivery side (CI/CD pipelines, automated testing, etc), not the interaction with product and other stakeholders (no fail fast and pivot, real MVP, etc). I know there's been some attempts at moving in this direction, but I honestly can't see it happening, since it's innately at odds with the short term incentives that Congress has (and the Pentagon operates under).

The place I worked at had decent perks, but nothing like Silicon Valley tech companies. We had a cafeteria and a Starbucks in the building, but neither was subsidized. Vending machine snacks, again, at cost. Pay and benefits were reasonably competitive for the area as best I could tell (but didn't look that much; when I was ready to move on I wanted different geography as well).

General culture was fairly laid back; only the month or so before something was due did it feel crunchy, and then only for certain people. A lot of dead weight, but a lot of job security, especially for those who delivered.

The projects could be interesting. I worked on a distributed data visualization system that got me exposed to the CAP theorem back in 2011ish, which helped set the trajectory of my career, though I didn't realize it at the time. I also encountered people who said, half jokingly, that their skills had stagnated to the point they weren't hireable elsewhere. I doubt that as true, but certainly at the time there was work on technical things that didn't translate outside of defense (but many of the skills did even if not the technology).

In terms of would I go back to the defense industry? Probably not if I have a choice. While there are a lot of problems in public sector tech companies too, and many with the same issues as defense contractors, there are more of them, and the constraints placed on them tend not to feel as daunting or arbitrary as some of the ones placed on defense companies. Ultimately the impression I got was that defense companies tend to be very stable and predictable, and I just don't appreciate that as much as I appreciate being able to suggest changes and seek improvements.

Approaching this the other way - stepping into my first public sector company, I got to appreciate being agile, actually working with stakeholders to understand and address their needs directly. I got to make technology choices with the team based on what would address the problem the best (and that we were interested in supporting) instead of being told what they were based on what the contract said. And I got to work on smaller more focused teams. Longer term, I've gotten better compensation I feel like (though haven't directly compared; is there more than just a ~15% bonus offered at defense companies now?), the feeling of a lot more things 'done', and the ability to change jobs (without having to change geographic locations) when I felt like I needed a change.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#353
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is silly. Make the exams open book and then the only thing you really need to worry about is the correct student taking the exam. If you're testing based on memorization of things in this day in age, then the course is useless.

Our university physics teacher allowed us to bring one-page self-made cheat sheet. By the time you compressed the essence of a whole course into a one-pager, you were pretty much done learning. :))

I still have a couple of the cheat sheets my study group compiled -- they're so fun to look back on. One for Computer Organization is almost unintelligible to me now; we were so proud of the density of that sucker.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's software to detect copy-pasted code or plagiarized (it analyses the syntax tree so renaming the variables and changing indentation won't fool it!). The best however, is a 1:1 code review with a TA or Prof. Randomly jumping to files, reading the code and asking questions about it. Extremely hard to copy a codebase and learn it well enough you can explain it but really easy to do if you wrote it yourself.

I have to wonder how well that analysis code works in practice. for a lot of intro-level (and some mid-level) course assignments, there's only one or two straightforward ways to write the code. sometimes these assignments are just pasting together sample code from the powerpoint with a couple tweaks. I was a TA for a few of these courses, and the correct solutions tended to be very similar. I was only sure students w…

100%. We had similar software when I was a TA, and I just ignored it and left it to the professor to deal with. I found a few cases of obvious plagiarism though, for the exact same reason you mention, too - the same mistakes.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#355
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually very disappointing that this whole monitoring system was deemed necessary to begin with. How screwed is the system that anyone one would believe this level of intrusion should be part of the education process.

cheating was absolutely rampant when I was in college getting my CS degree. and that was with tests taken in person with the professor in the room! I'm sure students are even more brazen when all assignments are done at home. I think at the very least, all exams ought to be designed as "open book" with a time limit. that at least eliminates the issue of students using unauthorized resources. I'm not sure what can be…

This seems so insane to me. This isn't high school, you're going to be expected to actually use the stuff you are learning in just a couple of years when you're in the real world. Nobody is going to code for you after you've graduated and gotten the job. For that matter, how are you going to pass an interview if you don't know the material?

Or are they cheating at the "take these courses to become a more rounded person" stuff, like the insect biology courses for the CS students?

Still, you're paying a fuckton of money to supposedly learn stuff in college. Cheating your way through is a huge waste.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#356
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure projects are generally better than exams. But cheating on projects and papers is also rampant. Students just pay someone else to do the work.

Here's my solution to this: 1) Version control all assignments. I force them to make periodic commits throughout the week. If they want to copy a project wholesale, they have to do so in a way that takes a lot of time and effort. 2) Comparing bytecode. If they change the names of variables, comments, spacing, etc. these superficial differences will be lost in compilation. 3) Oral explanations. Now that everyone has g…

Not going to comment on the listed steps (that sounds like a pain to grade), but I will totally echo your comment about knowing how well someone is doing.

Every semester, students fell into the same buckets. - Those I rarely saw who nailed everything (and were getting an A or a high B because they understood the material), - Those I saw constantly who were going to get an A or a B (because they sometimes didn't understand things from class, or when they did, wanted to make sure; or for a few, understood it all, but knew the importance of showing they cared about the material to the professor and TAs) - Those I saw constantly who were going to get a C or a B (they rarely understood from class, but were willing to put in the work to try to) - Those I never saw who were going to fail (they didn't show up to anything).

It was pretty much invariably this latter group that got caught cheating. That's not to say the other groups didn't, but they at least got working code, did really well on the exams (pre-COVID, proctored in person), and in conversation were able to show they understood, so I'm a lot less concerned about them.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I finished up the coursework for my masters degree at the start of the pandemic. My university was quite flexible for how instructors would examine us, given how sudden everything had to change. One of my courses, which only had about 8 students and two instructors, decided to do an oral examination, which ended up being basically a very in-depth, one on one conversation about the course material and based on the exp…

When I was an engineering student at the university of Naples, all my courses were examined both with a written exam and an oral one. No exception, no matter how many students. It was hard for us and the teachers but, boy, you had to really study that stuff! Since then I've become an academic myself and have been teaching in several countries. I have never found the same level of rigor in any place I've been.

I remember friends in the '80s studying law in Turin always having orals - as you say "they had to know their stuff"!

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can't stress the importance of school and how it will affect the rest of their life, and then not expect them to do whatever it takes to make sure they do well there. For some, it might be a matter of making sure they have an excellent record, for others, it might a case of keeping them in the system at all if they didn't get there though merit, or feel like they can't keep up enough to stick around. I imagine the…

> We can't stress the importance of school and how it will affect the rest of their life, and then not expect them to do whatever it takes to make sure they do well there. That's basically what happened here: The school expected students to cheat and looked for solutions to address it. I think it's very important that universities have very significant consequences when students are caught cheating. Cheaters don't ge…

> If Universities made examples out of students who were 100% confirmed cheating beyond reasonable doubt, the amount of cheating would decline significantly. Instead, we're stuck with this game of half-baked anti-cheating systems which some students approach as game.

When I went to school they made a big deal out of the student ethics board, and if you were caught cheating you were brought before it. It was implied that you would be kicked out of school and your cheating conviction would be appended to any other school's request for your transcript.

I don't know how prevalent cheating was at the school.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I teach at the university level and this is what I have done with my exams. Everything is open book and in my experience there is no difference in the average exam score between open book online and closed (or open) book in person. It is also way easier for me to not have to worry about who is cheating and where everyone is looking (I also don't like the idea of forcing students to turn on their webcams).

I finished up the coursework for my masters degree at the start of the pandemic. My university was quite flexible for how instructors would examine us, given how sudden everything had to change. One of my courses, which only had about 8 students and two instructors, decided to do an oral examination, which ended up being basically a very in-depth, one on one conversation about the course material and based on the exp…

> decided to do an oral examination,

This really is the best case, but as you note it was 8 students so quite manageable.

It requires a little skill on the part of the examiner, but you can quickly find out how much material the student knows with much higher accuracy than other exam formats, in my opinion.

One of the skills needed is to be able to make it conversational-feeling and reduce the anxiety of students. You can often tell when a student mostly knows what is going on but has misstated or misremembered something, and guide them around the place they got stuck.

Re: EFF sues Proctorio on behalf of student falsely DMCA'd

#360
post #259

There was a time when calculators were not allowed. The solution was that since people can always have access to calculators they should be allowed to use them. I think that should work, if a student can use a computer to answer a question he can always use a computer to answer that question. It should be encouraged to do so, the school should make an effort providing- and keeping the answers online and available for…

this clearly doesn't work because most test questions for students are trivially Google-able. So then tests as they currently exist would not be able to differentiate someone who has studied and internalized the material from someone who Googles quickly. Tests would have to be re-written to require a lot more creativity, which is not only hard to do as a test writer, it's harder to grade and ultimately for students,…

It just struck me that memorized facts and rules are extremely hard to update.
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