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OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

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Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#351

Post by ocdtrekkie »

busterarm wrote: post #344
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The SSPL conveys no new stipulations not permitted by GPL-based licenses, it is just more inclusive in doing so. If SSPL isn't open source, neither is the GPL.

GPL carries no restrictions if you don't distribute the software. The AGPL on the other hand, was a huge mistake, IMO.

The AGPL was the first step in addressing a critical need to protect the users' right to run the software they use, the SSPL just continues that, as many services wouldn't be runnable without the support code around them.

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#352

Post by pas »

galaxyLogic wrote: post #275

I think this thread is much about shared source licenses like SSPL vs. "orthodox" open source licenses like GPL. Based on the link below it seems to me the difference is that SSPL etc. have a clause which prevents me from making money by selling the use of the licensed software over the network for instance. GPL puts some rather strict rules on users of copyleft software, mainly that you MUST distribute your modifica…

Ethics requires a framework. Just because something is free it doesn't become good. For example free heroin samples!

It's a complex problem to even phrase the question of what do we mean by having a healthy software/IT ecosystem. Do simply count the number of users? GDP of the Internet? Number of git repos? Naturally those doesn't even begin to capture the self-balancing dynamics we are after. We want to encourage folks to start new ventures, but also to give back. But by giving back what if they eliminate old ventures? (Eg. Google "giving back" Chrome might make the Firefox venture non-viable.) How can we describe healthy competition? (It'd be good if the browser market wouldn't be cross-financed from ads, but - let's say - every user would tell their ISP to direct some of their subscription fee to one of the browser vendors.) Okay, but what does this have to do with licenses!? Yeah, it's a fairly hard problem.

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#353

Post by kodah »

hintymad wrote: post #219
jimmy2020 wrote: post #151

Is there any good that done by Amazon to support OSS? Like ever. They started with cloning MongoDB and now Elastic with actually zero contribution to the community regardless of their insane profits. This is a clear single. Amazon can always clone and redistribute any open source software then lock it in for AWS. If we've started to witness declining in OSS, well at least we know now who started the wave.

Do people assume that a company as large as AWS would automatically have a lot to contribute to the OSS? Maybe most of Amazon teams have not much to open source yet. Contributing to OSS is a bottom-up effort. An engineer needs to be motivated to generalize her project, to peel the code from Amazon's vast internal infrastructure, and to go through an approval process to open source her project. Given that many teams h…

You don't need to assume. Amazon's Open Source team regularly talks about how much they do for open source in my companies Slack. It's their own words.

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#354

Post by [deleted] »

systemvoltage wrote: post #281
amzn-throw wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they can invest more resources into developing it than the original team ever could. I know this is a popular narrative, but as someone who works on AWS, I think you would be shocked by how small the individual dev teams are that build and maintain the services that everyone uses. I'm not going to downplay the network effects involved. Of course AWS has a tremendous advantage in being able to standardize the custom…

Could you please shed some light on how many people would be behind a product like AWS Lambda or AWS CloudWatch? As an outsider, I would guess huge swaths of developers with a massive hierarchy. Buildings full of folks working on AWS services. I have no idea and extremely curious.

[deleted]

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#355

Post by dilyevsky »

busterarm wrote: post #36
real_joschi wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're not using any of the AWS services, that might be true but then you're also leaving a lot of potential on the table. If you're "cloud-agnostic" and could migrate away from AWS in the blink of an eye then you're paying for an overpriced VM offering and should probably migrate to a cheaper hosting provider immediately.

> If you're "cloud-agnostic" and could migrate away from AWS in the blink of an eye then you're paying for an overpriced VM offering and should probably migrate to a cheaper hosting provider immediately. No this is what everyone suggesting this does not get. The offerings are not equivalent. There are a baseline of services that the cloud providers offer that can be made functionally-equivalent. It's not just EC2 but…

It’s not super hard to run your own s3 or peer with wasabi and pay flat transit rate (probably like 10x cheaper than your s3 egress)

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#356

Post by fastball »

hit8run wrote: post #271

Perfect case for a megacorp destroying open source plus business models. I start to hate amazon with a passion. Craziest thing is they are not paying taxes in Europe though they dominate the market. Amazon needs be broken up. It's too big and too mighty.

Isn't this an example of an open source business model. Amazon is supporting development of this Apache 2.0 licensed OSS, which they plan to make money off of...

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#357

Post by jfb »

015a wrote: post #43
TechBro8615 wrote: post #9

It's hard for me to know whether to feel bad for ES in this case. Did they bring it on themselves? Is Amazon too big and a bully? From my perspective, Amazon has made most of its profit price gouging consumers on bandwidth after vendor locking them into their ecosystem, where they bootstrap new services by wrapping open source software with some provisioning scripts, management dashboards and cookie-cutter API / cons…

One thing which surprised me: Elastic has a market capitalization of ~$11B. I think that changes some of the more floaty ethical concerns. This is not a David vs Goliath situation. This is Goliath vs Super-Goliath. At this point, I'm much less interested in the drama of which mega-corp is screwing over the other. I'm more interested in: how does it affect me? When the titans are done trampling over the rest of us, wh…

I mean, Elastic was successful because of license arbitrage; to complain about said arbitrage when Amazon does it is ... well, it's hard to feel a lot of sympathy.

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#358

Post by pm90 »

amzn-throw wrote: post #179
TechBro8615 wrote: post #9

It's hard for me to know whether to feel bad for ES in this case. Did they bring it on themselves? Is Amazon too big and a bully? From my perspective, Amazon has made most of its profit price gouging consumers on bandwidth after vendor locking them into their ecosystem, where they bootstrap new services by wrapping open source software with some provisioning scripts, management dashboards and cookie-cutter API / cons…

> they can invest more resources into developing it than the original team ever could. I know this is a popular narrative, but as someone who works on AWS, I think you would be shocked by how small the individual dev teams are that build and maintain the services that everyone uses. I'm not going to downplay the network effects involved. Of course AWS has a tremendous advantage in being able to standardize the custom…

Interesting. I wonder if the market can only support managed services when it’s provided directly by the cloud provider like AWS. I assume Elastic has to add margins to cover for their existence, which make them less competitive with AWS.

This sounds a little unfair, even if I agree with the argument that they’re free to fork OSS software and do whatever the fuck they want.

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#360

Post by ummonk »

jfb wrote: post #357
015a wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing which surprised me: Elastic has a market capitalization of ~$11B. I think that changes some of the more floaty ethical concerns. This is not a David vs Goliath situation. This is Goliath vs Super-Goliath. At this point, I'm much less interested in the drama of which mega-corp is screwing over the other. I'm more interested in: how does it affect me? When the titans are done trampling over the rest of us, wh…

I mean, Elastic was successful because of license arbitrage; to complain about said arbitrage when Amazon does it is ... well, it's hard to feel a lot of sympathy.

Exactly this. Elastic search took open source code and turned it into a service to profit from it while making improvements to the code. Amazon is doing the same thing, except they’re keeping their contributions truly open source.
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