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NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

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Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#351

NFTs make perfect sense for representing a claim on things that can be used, like event tickets or in-game virtual goods. But as certificates layered on top of collectibles... I'm not so sure. With something like CryptoKitties, you can do something with the tokens (play a virtual pet game). But with something like CryptoPunks you're essentially paying for digital beanie babies, which are worse than real ones since an…

> NFTs make perfect sense for representing a claim on things that can be used, like event tickets or in-game virtual goods. There’s absolutely no reason for that to be decentralized, only one party can honor the tokens anyways. Like most things crypto they don’t actually make sense for anything.

What does the tokens even mean anyway? It doesn't mean "I'm the owner of this one in five paper canvas art", it just means "I'm the owner of this one number, which someone decided is related to that digital piece of art for which there can exist infinitely many copies that are perfectly identical".

What does it even mean? Let's say I buy a NTF $1000 and get a digital copy, what prevents me (barring legalities) to perfectly duplicate it and massively redistribute it (not the token, the distributed supposedly high quality file) for a fraction of $$$ and turn a profit (because since it had such a high price it must be in high demand)? The question is not about the legal consequences but about the thing you own: of you have one original painting you have only one, it's quite hard to exactly duplicate it for resale.

I may be naive (the dropbox-is-just-rsync kind) but I've yet to see a tangible explanation of a use† of CryptoArt/NFT that could not be done with `xxd -l 128 -p /dev/random` and PGP[0].

† No. "being in the blockchain" brings absolutely nothing (except burning watts). If the author wants to reissue anything he readily can. You. Just. Own. A. Number. I also hear some picture the author getting a cut of resales of the token, which is even more crazy when you manage to entertain the thought while trying to keep a straight face.

[0]: https://twitter.com/lloeki/status/1366804865943556106

Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#352
Just a technical question about NFTs and physical ownership. Are NFTs just a cryptographic key that points to digital goods or do they somehow encode them? If the former then the image is "on the cloud" and therefore actually on someone else's physical network, and the key will only be able to access the goods as long as a third party keeps the encrypted goods on their network. Once money has been exchanged what is in it for the third party keep hosting?

Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#353
post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> NFTs make perfect sense for representing a claim on things that can be used, like event tickets or in-game virtual goods. There’s absolutely no reason for that to be decentralized, only one party can honor the tokens anyways. Like most things crypto they don’t actually make sense for anything.

What does the tokens even mean anyway? It doesn't mean "I'm the owner of this one in five paper canvas art", it just means "I'm the owner of this one number, which someone decided is related to that digital piece of art for which there can exist infinitely many copies that are perfectly identical". What does it even mean? Let's say I buy a NTF $1000 and get a digital copy, what prevents me (barring legalities) to per…

> Let's say I buy a NTF $1000 and get a digital copy, what prevents me (barring legalities) to perfectly duplicate it and massively redistribute it (not the token, the distributed supposedly high quality file) for a fraction of $$$ and turn a profit

The file is usually publicly accessible, why would anyone give you money for something they can just download?

Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#354
I agree that most NFTs will be mostly useless outside of certain conditions. Ie. If I want to play a blockchain-based game NFTs in that game will be valuable because my client and other player client to the game is forced to accept that toke legitimacy. But outside of the blockchain-world? What's the point of a NFTs? I guess this who care to brag that they overpaid for a png or mp3...

But I feel this post is another excuse to accuse cryptoassets of wasting energy. Up until 10 years of so ago detractors tried to tarnish cryptoassets reputations by associating it with traditional crime. Now they do it by trying to associate it with climate crime.

Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> - Artificial general intelligence Not only we don't have AGI but there is an ongoing discussion whether it's possible to have it at all.

If we had it (AI), talking about dangers of having it, would be too late (as human intelligence cannot argue with god intelligence) It is simple, as ant cannot contain human, in the same way humans won't be able to contain AGI. Can it exist, yes it can - simply, can me and you think, yes. In a way we are "device", so therefore, it is possible to make intelligence similar and/or more powerful than our is.

> In a way we are "device", so therefore, it is possible to make intelligence similar and/or more powerful than our is.

I mean, yes, I can have a child and raise her to be smarter than me, but I don't really think that's what you have in mind.

The strong AGI proponents always resort to hand-waving and dubious analogies. There's no reason to think that building ever-larger ML models will produce an intelligence capable of comprehension and insights like a human mind unless you believe the human brain is nothing more than a bunch of weighted vectors.

Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#356
One of the issues I see around NFTs is simply a misunderstanding of what they are at a fundamental level and the constraints which exist. The lack of understanding is causing hyperbole and flat out mistakes in online discussion around the topic.

Some truths:

* NFT is simply an idea; non-fungible token. The idea is that of a certificate of authenticity.

* The most prominent implementation of the NFT idea is the ERC-721 standard on the Ethereum blockchain.

* The ERC-721 standard simply defines a common interface for verification of ownership (validity of the certificate of authenticity) and transfer of ownership - https://eips.ethereum.org/EIPS/eip-721

* The ERC-721 standard allows for a token to be purchased in one market place and sold in another. The same way an email can be sent from a gmail server and received on a proton mail server.

* The ERC-721 standard allows any party to verify that a given Ethereum address (wallet) owns a particular token. It allows anyone with the private key of that wallet to verify their ownership of the wallet and therefore the token.

* The private key can be shared with anyone in the same way a physical certificate of ownership could be replicated and shared with others given sufficient resources to perform the replication.

* The underlying implementation of an ERC-721 compliant smart contract (think token owner registry) is up to the developer. The simplest implementation would be an array of Ethereum wallet addresses where each index of the array represents an individual token and its corresponding value represents the owner. Just a lookup.

* If the ERC-721 standard is being followed then there is only a single "owner" of the token. Multiple owners are not supported by the standardised interface.

* Other standards exist and will likely be created in the future. Their success will be determined by network effects.

* A different NFT standard to ERC-721 COULD assign value of a single token to multiple owners. I would argue that this token is no longer an NFT :shrug:

* NFTs are not JPGs, GIFs, tickets, or pointers to an owned item. They are simply some kind of ownership entry in a smart contract stored on a trusted ledger (the blockchain). They're collectibles in the sense that a wallet can collect them.

* The value of an NFT lies solely in the external value assigned to an individuals ability to verify ownership of the token through a private key. For an art piece this might provide access to an exclusive real world event, the ability to hang the art piece in a virtual world, bragging rights etc.

* The external value can change over time. Right now you may "own" a GIF but in ten years time the artist may host an exclusive event and invite token holders.

* The standardised interface means that anyone can assign value to a given token. A cryptokitty is minted by dapper labs but can be used in any environment which recognises the token as a "thing". For example this could be a virtual world or any number of games.

* A new platform can sort of bootstrap liquidity by supporting an existing type of NFT (e.g. cryptokitties, punks etc.). One of a new MMORPG's value proposition may be that they have integrated hundreds or thousands of popular types of virtual items to be used within their world.

* As such, Dapper Labs could go bust and disappear but a cryptokitty could have value in other environments beyond this event. The standardised interface means that a cryptokitty can continue to be bought and sold beyond the lifetime of Dapper Labs.

* NFTs cannot be copied, replicated, cloned. Private keys can be shared and therefore access to the NFTs value COULD be shared.

* Based on the above points, hopefully it's clear that a given NFT cannot be minted multiple times. If the artist mints three NFTs then each one is unique. Each could have different external value assigned to it (or the same).

Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#357

So, lets think, we have following issues: - Climate change - Artificial general intelligence - Biotechnology risk - Ecological collapse - Molecular nanotechnology - Nuclear holocaust - Overpopulation - Global pandemic - ... Most of them caused by way we use our energy and time. Oh, yes we also have excess of computing power ... hm what shell we do? Solution: Let spend even more energy on large calculations in order t…

There are multiple solutions, but all requires that the our current power structure decide and commit to solving them.

So far there's no consensus on any level. (Meaning there are not enough people at any level to force, or agree/compromise, or influence the economy, or make it the dominant single issue politically/culturally.)

Sure, participating in it by buying, mining PoW coins (or basically any coin that then - due to hedging/diversification - leads to even more PoW coin mining/demand) while knowing about the external cost is morally problematic. However the actual harm is likely less than doing many-many other selfish (immoral/bad) acts.

If the early crypto billionaires exit crypto and put their newfound wealth into effective altruism the moral calculus changes very starkly.

Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#359
post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Shelter" sounds like a modest expectation, but at least for me, and a lot of other people, a decent level of "shelter" requires you to be pretty well off. The average house here in the UK costs £~305k, so a mortgage on that requires like 30k deposit + 60k income, which means being a top 10% earner. I've no real aspiration to be "rich" in a superyacht sense, but I would like to be able to remain in my home city and o…

The solution is simple: build more houses to increase supply. It needs to be said: there is a drastic shortage of decent housing in the UK . The cost of building a new house is approaching less than half the final sale price (if not even less) simply due to pressure from scarcity. Why aren’t people building as many new houses as there’s clearly demand? Numerous factors: greenbelt laws, height restrictions, “Right to…

It is not so simple, let me give example, in UK during pandemic prices hyped by 30%. Reason is, rich own land and properties, but they own them on account of debt and cash flow. Some people have more than 100,000 properties in their portfolio, and they relying on cash flow. So, if anything disturbing happen let say pandemic kills lots of people (or they lose their jobs) and no one rents anymore, then next thing that will collapse are banks, as Banks cannot get their money back. Next thing is government collapsing. In order to maintain this structure, or protect it from collapsing, during each economic crises government pumps more money (subsidies, interest free money, free money) to the rich. What they do? They buy even more properties. So, basically on account of the blackmail-standoff-ransom-situation, they siphoning all the properties from the market. Regardless how many properties you make in UK they will buy them all, as they buying them with additional debt - and in that way protecting their renting business. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: NFTs Are a Dangerous Trap

#360
post #270
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Previously there was no way to credibly sell an "original". You can produce a commission for someone, but the nature of a digital artwork is that anyone you show it to has the whole thing. To a certain extent this was already the case with photos, and IMO that's part of the reason that prices for photographic artwork are much lower than other media. You'll sometimes see photographers selling a series of 500 numbered…

No, the NFTs are a separate thing which apparently has some sort of sentimental value. The digital artwork is still whatever it was before. I could sell an NFT for my cuckoo clock. It has nothing to do with my cuckoo clock.

It's akin to a certificate of authenticity for a numbered print in a series. Anyone can make another copy of the print, and it doesn't really matter which copy a certificate goes with, but without the certificate the print is worthless.
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