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The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

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Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#351

Post by Grustaf »

valarauko wrote: post #316
Grustaf wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me the main point is really to avoid moral hazard, not saving those 9 doses. It would be worth wasting a few doses here and there if it greatly decreases the level of corruption in the system. But if people waiting for 2 hours is common, then turning away the last ones doesn’t seem like a good solution. If they really wanted to they could of course come up with an efficient, low corruption system but they don’t s…

> It would be worth wasting a few doses here and there if it greatly decreases the level of corruption in the system. While reasonable in isolation, I would suggest that this view doesn't account for the extreme scarcity of the vaccine, and the stretched healthcare resources. I mean, while I work 300 feet from our hospital and our vaccine stockpiles, it was quicker to travel to the neighboring county with a lower cas…

Perhaps the simplest solution would be that after they select who is to be vaccinated that day, they also select 30 or so as backup, and tell them to be ready because it _might_ be their turn so they might get a phone call that evening.

Those 30 could simply be the first 30 from the next day.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#352

Post by prepend »

rjbwork wrote: post #5

This is just Kafkaesque. People in a position of authority with blind adherence to rules intended for optimal scenarios. They're literally saying he should have just thrown them away instead of distributing them as best he was able. This whole thing is a logistical clusterfuck and they're trying to throw this dude under the bus. It's obscene.

I think the problem is that there are incentives to just keep finding 10 vaccines about to expire.

I think the issue here is that the organization was stupid and unable to use them. And while the doctor’s motives seem virtuous, his wife got a vaccine ahead of schedule.

I think we have to improve efficiency, but not also set up a system where friends and family of doctors get preferential treatment because of proximity.

This whole issue is solved by better inventory management where about to expire doses are used first, not poorly managed so that a healthcare worker has to try to handle logistics directly.

I think the whole case would have been different if he didn’t personally benefit through his decisions by giving a dose to his wife.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#353

Post by [deleted] »

pksebben wrote: post #349
golemotron wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes sense when you think about it. Without the rules, there's excuse to -not- find the people the vaccine is meant for and use it yourself. Anyone who thinks that this would not happen doesn't know human nature very well. They are welcome to post situations where such excuses haven't been taken advantage of. I'll take lack of replies as acceptance of my point.

"I'll take lack of replies as acceptance of my point". Sure, buddy, you do that. Whatever helps you feel clever.

[deleted]

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#354

Post by prepend »

galangalalgol wrote: post #66
SamBam wrote: post #12

The same thing has been happening across the country. This is basically states failing to create a proper portal that can provide a vaccine-provider a list of the next n prioritized people in the city, and then blaming the doctors when they don't have arms to inject. This is a failure of management from the very top, and people lower down getting the blame. It is simply insane to me that most (all?) states haven't us…

Is hippa partly at fault? I wonder how much of our healthcare cost is related to hippa. The only time I have had to use a fax in the last decade is to get my medical records to a new doctor.

I can submit my data anywhere I want. I can permit it to be shared with anyone I want.

Having a registry that I submit info to, get it verified, and shared to doctors is probably easier because of HIPAA. Because at least there’s a common standard that system operators can plan around and there’s at least some protection.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#355

Post by SamBam »

josefx wrote: post #177
underseacables wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like the problem you hear with restaurants wanting to give away unused, clean food to shelters, but forbidden by the health department.

In Germany a tax office once got the great idea to collect taxes on food donations based on the cost of ingredients. As far as the law was concerned this was the correct way to handle a food donation, most tax offices just didn't consider it. The issue got resolved, but for some time any business that wanted to be on the safe side had to "sell" its donation for the symbolic price of one Mark. Early on this also resul…

Are charitable donations taxed in Germany?

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#356

Post by SamBam »

prepend wrote: post #352
rjbwork wrote: post #5

This is just Kafkaesque. People in a position of authority with blind adherence to rules intended for optimal scenarios. They're literally saying he should have just thrown them away instead of distributing them as best he was able. This whole thing is a logistical clusterfuck and they're trying to throw this dude under the bus. It's obscene.

I think the problem is that there are incentives to just keep finding 10 vaccines about to expire. I think the issue here is that the organization was stupid and unable to use them. And while the doctor’s motives seem virtuous, his wife got a vaccine ahead of schedule. I think we have to improve efficiency, but not also set up a system where friends and family of doctors get preferential treatment because of proximit…

I agree with you that that's the part that made it "look bad," but it sounds as if he truly did everything he could to give it to other people first, gave it to her only as a very last resort with minutes to go, and she was eligible anyway.

If he wanted to cover-his-ass, he shouldn't have given it to her. If he wanted to actually do the right thing, he was doing the right thing.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#358

Post by civilized »

kxyvr wrote: post #339
civilized wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting post, better than most making this side of the argument. Do we know if those ERs would administer vaccines from another hospital's punctured vial in their facilities? Do we know how long it would take to get the answer to that question, trimming off the 42 minutes per person Dr. Gokal had to find, administer, and properly document the vaccine injection? And at the end of all that, would there be enough hi…

I very much agree that we don't have all of the information here and that it's very easy to Monday morning quarterback a decision that was made under pressure without good guidance. Sadly, it's possible that this whole situation will turn into a trap where there all available options have some kind of negative outcome. That said, I don't think that it's entirely inappropriate to discuss or postulate other courses of…

> As much as the organizations that I worked with don't want waste, the bias is to side with clean, unreproachable conduct even if this is more wasteful.

The problem with this, which few in the government seem to understand, is that knowingly and wilfully letting people die needlessly in a pandemic is deeply reproachable conduct. Personally, I'd actually call such conduct despicable. But my personal standards of conduct could perhaps be much higher than average, so we can leave it at reproachable as a basline.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#359

Post by nickff »

amp180 wrote: post #350
nickff wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t speak to your work, but the reason I get paid is the same reason that my employer profits, and that is because the company provides consumer surplus to its customers. I’ve occasionally edited Wikipedia, to correct grammatical or factual errors, but I don’t see it as having contributed much to the world.

Consumer surplus is not the only human good and infact discounts good done for humans who do not have money. This not liking vanity thing is interesting but if you tie it to economics then anything that helps people that doesn't make money --things like free software and participating in charities-- could be considered 'vanity' too despite the good they can do. I got similarly worked up over 'virtue signaling' and pe…

To be clear, I’m fine with people doing whatever they want; I just don’t want to encourage it when it’s selfish behavior. I am not telling you what to do, and if you’d like to pay Wikipedia editors, I won’t stop you.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#360

Post by josefx »

SamBam wrote: post #355
josefx wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany a tax office once got the great idea to collect taxes on food donations based on the cost of ingredients. As far as the law was concerned this was the correct way to handle a food donation, most tax offices just didn't consider it. The issue got resolved, but for some time any business that wanted to be on the safe side had to "sell" its donation for the symbolic price of one Mark. Early on this also resul…

Are charitable donations taxed in Germany?

Only as a side effect of existing taxes. When you buy food and then donate it you pay consumer centered taxes at the point of sale. When a company gives away food for free there was apparently a regulation that applied the taxes on the ingredients instead and in this case the tax office decided that this also applied to donations.
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