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WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

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Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#351

Post by wruza »

Barrin92 wrote: post #174
AndriyKunitsyn wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Telegram always has encryption, just no end-to-end encryption by default. This is a privacy/convenience trade-off. When chatting about groceries/memes/latest Netflix releases, you don't really need E2EE that much, and chats without E2EE are synced to all devices in Telegram, including a fully-supported desktop app.

I'm willing to bet you money that virtually nobody adjusts their privacy settings based on topic of conversation, especially not non-tech people which is almost all users. I don't think I've ever seen anyone chat with their girlfriend and go "hey, grocery talk over, switch to e2ee now". Defaults matter and I'm certain almost no telegram conversations use e2ee as a consequence, with private info or otherwise. It's imp…

It’s also important to have an option to turn it off, to benefit from mass-grouping (whatsapp limits groups to 256 users, lurking or not), chat history (new group participants can’t scroll up in whatsapp) and easy continuity (phone/pc job use case). Also it is not clear if whatsapp implements the same:

  - forward secrecy
  - self-destruction
  - forced destruction
as telegram does. E.g. whatsapp seems to only have an option for 7 day self-destruction, which may be too long for some use cases, and no instant destruction. Neither of two are superior privacy-wise all things considered, but stating that always-on e2ee is a most important thing is probably naive. And then you have tg bots, ui/keyboards, stickers, etc which for a regular user outweigh the security area entirely.

Also your virtual bet is lost because every time my circle discusses ‘hot’ topics in telegram (company issues, lawyer/audit-related chats, recreational drug use, etc), we go secret and warn users who do otherwise. We can’t check whether that is common or not, because those who have to be ‘secret’ may resist to admit this activity.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#352

Post by f430 »

soupson wrote: post #284

This is some mafia shit. They're holding users data hostage behind a click-through acceptance of their altered terms. You can either pray they don't alter the deal further, or get the fuck out, abandoning your chat history and social connections.

They are fucking gangsters thats what!

Tricked people into giving up info they trade like commodities so they can buy more useless crap in life.

Fortunately, it is generally expected Harris/Biden administration will come down hard on these companies.

then again they are wall street people so we will have to see if there's a recession (The simpsons predicted a global recession after Trump administration)

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#353

Post by 7v3x3n3sem9vv »

Swaglord333 wrote: post #292

What would the smart alternative to WA be? Telegram? Line? How can I continue using the WA without giving Facebook sth to work with? Please bear with me if this doesn't belong here. Normally I wouldn't dare posting on HN (don't want it to become mainstream and have idiots like me gush out their opinions) but I really dunno who else to ask this.

Agree with the other guy suggesting Signal. It's basically WhatsApp, owned by non-profit so that it can't be sold to a for-profit. They've been subpoenaed and the only data they could provide for a user was the phone number that was registered, the first day that number registered and the most recent day the phone number contacted their servers.

I would suggest reading through their blog posts if you're curious about all the work they're putting into ensuring that they collect as little data about their users as possible. they truly are innovating in a field where nobody else seems to care about ensuring privacy first.

This does come at a cost to how quickly user-facing features arrive compared to their competitors, but this is because they think through where you may leak data and engineer a way around it before allowing a feature to go through. That said, at this point it's pretty much at feature parity with WhatsApp, so moving over to it would be a great time to do so.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#354

Post by wruza »

judge2020 wrote: post #306
wruza wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Few years ago we discussed these numbers on a pretty popular (top 5 of its kind) local pic-and-discussion forum. Devs said that an average user brings around $2 in a year (including those using adblock, etc). I sent them around $8 and they turned off any ads for my account forever. I could just continue using ad blocking, but they made that “hey you’re using” header that annoyed me on mobile, where it is hard to “pic…

Only difference is that we've learned that third-party ad placements are much lower quality and barely worth the ad spend. YouTube ads are highly valuable since they're effectively first-party and will offer high(er) assurances of whether clicks are legitimate. And, as mentioned below, people willing to pay for YT Premium are probably more valuable than the average viewer. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2562385…

people willing to pay for YT Premium are probably more valuable than the average viewer

What does it mean in a context?

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#355

Post by ffpip »

webmobdev wrote: post #335
7v3x3n3sem9vv wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Signal is "owned" by a non-profit. They can't be sold to a for profit, they learned their lessons from WhatsApp. Lastly, Signal doesn't collect/store any of your data on their infrastructure other than a few hashes required for operation. WhatsApp/facebook on the other hand collect, and likely keep, forever, at much metadata about you as possible. The only way to pay for this free storage is to stay more data so they…

Where is Signal's owner non-profit located? Different countries have different laws regarding the status of a corporations profit or non-profit label.

US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_Foundation

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#356

Post by 7v3x3n3sem9vv »

intricatedetail wrote: post #135
generalizations wrote: post #128

Everyone is comparing signal vs. telegram, but what about element? Far as I can tell, that might actually be secure. https://element.io/

No messenger is secure. You never know if the code that is being run is the same as reviewed. If you want true privacy, then you need to encrypt messages yourself (with e.g. PGP)

Signal messenger uses reproducible builds. You can compare the source code to the app that's published to the app store to confirm that they're being honest.

I don't know if any other competitors who do the same. As Signal messages are end-to-end encrypted, Even if their servers were compromised, your messages would still be secure. As they use a rotating key, unlike manually using PGP, even if one of the keys was intercepted, they would not be able to decrypt any of your other messages. Using PGP, if someone steals your private key, all your messages are now vulnerable.

https://signal.org/blog/reproducible-android/

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#357

Post by filmgirlcw »

Tijdreiziger wrote: post #311
throwaway77_a wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did they have that ever on iOS? I’ve never seen it.

On iOS there was a one-time purchase fee. I recall there theoretically also being an annual charge, but IME this was always waived.

This is what I remember, tho I guess it’s possible they changed the terms for new users. But I bought it in late 2009, IIRC and it was either $0.99 or $2.99.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#358

Post by ffpip »

thekyle wrote: post #274
ssivark wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m curious in what way you find Matrix/Element not user friendly. (Since I know people who would claim the opposite)

I found the encryption really cumbersome. Like I just downloaded the app and its asking me to authorize my account from another Matrix client that I've previously signed into or I won't be able to read encrypted messages people send me. But I'm pretty sure I uninstalled those other clients so idk what to do there. Also I've previously had the Android app crash and throw Java stack traces, but that was an older versio…

authorize my account from another Matrix client that I've previously signed into or I won't be able to read encrypted messages people send me

That's how e2ee works. You have to send all the old messages to other new client on your other device.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#359

Post by 7v3x3n3sem9vv »

Atariman wrote: post #265

As a privacy concerned European, there's only one viable alternative: https://threema.ch/en/ It's open source and very secure: https://www.securemessagingapps.com/

I'm curious if you've looked into Signal and if you think it's a viable alternative to Threema? Specifically considering Signal is fully open source (client and servers), uses reproducible builds which allows you to verify that the source matches the app you're running, and is owned by a non-profit which can't be sold to a for-profit company.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#360

Post by iknowstuff »

ssivark wrote: post #244
akvadrako wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To give an idea, I think Matrix (and hence Element) borrowed the e2e design from Signal. So if they did it right it should be secure. I demoed it recently as a Slack alternative and it's not very user friendly. Our groups ended up just using Signal.

I’m curious in what way you find Matrix/Element not user friendly. (Since I know people who would claim the opposite)

1. Passphrases, additional to passwords, should not exist. Mainstream users don't know the difference. Matrix needs something like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Remote_Password_protoco....

2. Technical lingo like "verify other session" and some buggy emoji shenanigans confuse people. The only passable device linking, based on scanning a QR code, is between Element Desktop and Element Mobile, but...

3. Element on iOS is absolutely awful. The worst interface I've ever seen. Extremely busy and convoluted. Rows of horizontally scrollable icons, duplicated as lists? Chat views where spacing is all off? It doesn't work for small group chats and doesn't work for large public chatrooms.

4. Element on iOS won't play GIFs. Element on Chrome/Electron only uploads the first frame of a pasted GIF. This was actually a deal breaker for my social circle.

Frankly, just compare the user experience of Keybase and Element. Keybase got it right.

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