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Ethereum 2.0 launches

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Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#351

Post by SAI_Peregrinus »

dev_throw wrote: post #280
TeMPOraL wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When people claim Ethereum is turing complete, it means that anyone can launch a program into it, and the "swarm" runs the program. (...) Ethereum has baked in protocols so that the distributed result of millions of nodes running a program reaches a stasticial consensus. Usually the reason to run something on more than one computing unit is to achieve additive gains - like getting results faster, or processing more…

This is to achieve consensus - the N nodes running the smart contract will ideally replace the central authorities that we implicitly trust. This enables trustless transactions, which gets rid of a lot of business red tape and unlocks productivity.

Only for a really weird technical definition of "trustless". You have to trust that the smart contract does what's intended, in the way you think it does so. So you need to either trust someone who knows the relevant programming language to audit it, or learn enough to audit it yourself. VS legal contracts, where you have to trust a lawyer to audit the contract but at least have the benefit of laws and bar association ethical rules to constrain the lawyer's behavior. Either way, in practice most people will have to trust someone to safely use any smart contract.

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#352

Post by wmf »

eric_cc wrote: post #230
konschubert wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eventually Proof of Work WILL kill Bitcoin - but I have to admit this may be decades out in the future. Right now, most of the mining is financed via inflation. But as this comes to an end, eventually, the cost of mining will be borne by anyone making transactions on the network through tx fees. Somebody has to pay the electricity bill on all these ASICs. EDIT: One could try to argue that high transaction costs are n…

I just don't see it. Bitcoin could be forked to no longer use PoW if it became an existential threat.

Except Bitcoin is controlled by developers who have effectively promised to never fork.

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#353

Post by wmf »

andrethegiant wrote: post #348
hanniabu wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the crypto world inflation/ deflation refers to change in supply.

I thought BTC had a hardcoded cap of 21M coins? How could its supply change?

The 21M cap hasn't been reached yet so BTC are still being created.

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#354

Post by csomar »

ARandumGuy wrote: post #345
hanniabu wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the crypto world inflation/ deflation refers to change in supply.

So it's another area where cryptocurrency enthusiasts just decided to change the meaning of some words? Like they did with fiat?

I don't think the words deflation/inflation are linked to money. A ball can deflate, which has nothing to do with the value of the ball or money.

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#355

Post by Reedx »

tryptophan wrote: post #23
naringas wrote: post #17

One thing I haven't been able to figure out about proof of stake is this: if one entity somehow manages to control over half to the total ETH tokens, does this enable an attack analogous to bitcoin's 51% problem (which happens when one miner controls over half of the network's raw cpu power)?

Yes. But thats the point of PoS. Why would someone who owns >50% of something want to destroy it? Literally hurting yourself more just to hurt others a lesser amount.

If a large government decides it's a problem, would they hold it or destroy it?

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#356

Post by rudolph9 »

konschubert wrote: post #190
lekevicius wrote: post #39

I am incredibly happy about this. It's the first step for a major cryptocurrency towards ledger security that does not damage the environment via mining. I always hated how wasteful and energy-inefficient mining is. Staking reduces energy costs by many, many orders of magnitude. With lightweight clients in development, it is possible to validate chain using Raspberry Pi. I hope (but don't expect) that some time in th…

Eventually Proof of Work WILL kill Bitcoin - but I have to admit this may be decades out in the future. Right now, most of the mining is financed via inflation. But as this comes to an end, eventually, the cost of mining will be borne by anyone making transactions on the network through tx fees. Somebody has to pay the electricity bill on all these ASICs. EDIT: One could try to argue that high transaction costs are n…

Personally I like the approach the Cardano community has taken, working towards interoperability with pow and pos

https://medium.com/@schwartz4live/invitation-for-community-d...

Congrats to the Eth folks though, this really was a big undertaking.

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#357

Post by eMGm4D0zgUAVXc7 »

konschubert wrote: post #190
lekevicius wrote: post #39

I am incredibly happy about this. It's the first step for a major cryptocurrency towards ledger security that does not damage the environment via mining. I always hated how wasteful and energy-inefficient mining is. Staking reduces energy costs by many, many orders of magnitude. With lightweight clients in development, it is possible to validate chain using Raspberry Pi. I hope (but don't expect) that some time in th…

Eventually Proof of Work WILL kill Bitcoin - but I have to admit this may be decades out in the future. Right now, most of the mining is financed via inflation. But as this comes to an end, eventually, the cost of mining will be borne by anyone making transactions on the network through tx fees. Somebody has to pay the electricity bill on all these ASICs. EDIT: One could try to argue that high transaction costs are n…

> Eventually Proof of Work WILL kill Bitcoin [..]

> Right now, most of the mining is financed via inflation. But as this comes to an end, eventually, the cost of mining will be borne by anyone making transactions on the network through tx fees.

> Somebody has to pay the electricity bill on all these ASICs.

This is just wrong.

If the award available to miners decreases due to lack of inflation they will use less power-consuming hardware.

If that still results in loss due to electricity cost then miners will leave the market until the amount of miners in the market is equal to the amount of tx-fees available.

In other words: This is a market with supply and demand. If one decreases the other also goes down until they're balanced. It won't just make the market disappear!

So even if almost nobody was willing to pay any tx-fees and there was no inflation then Bitcoin would still be running. It may just move back to running in the background on consumer hardware which was bought for other purposes instead of having giant mining data centers.

This also means that mining isn't going to infinitely waste energy:

The demand for energy cannot go higher than the offer of tx fees / block reward.

So there is a finite upper boundary to Bitcoin's power consumption. I think a finite upper boundary is enough to justify its existence, the precise value of such a constant is arbitrary so you might as well not waste your time in arguing if it is too high or too low and instead be happy that there IS a boundary :)

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#358

Post by wpietri »

markkat wrote: post #125
louwrentius wrote: post #46

I don't understand this. I don't understand any of it. I don't understand cryptocurrencies. I don't understand what problems they really solve. > "Ethereum is open access to digital money and data-friendly services for everyone – no matter your background or location. It's a community-built technology behind the cryptocurrency ether (ETH) and thousands of applications you can use today." I can do all these things alr…

It makes me sad, because I expected a comment like this to be the highest on HN. In the case of Ethereum, digital scarcity secured by a blockchain enables a turing complete state machine that the world can use. In the most basic terms, this will remove clearing houses for transactions of assets. In the long term this will lead to novel types of assets, and make ownership extremely liquid. Imagine using your phone to…

For me at least, "Imagine the possibilities!" is not an answer to the question, "What's it good for?" Indeed, my experience is that it's almost an anti-answer.

For example, in the mid-aughts I was talking with the CEO of a well-funded "semantic web" company about joining. I liked the people and the tech was cool, but I just couldn't figure out how it would turn a profit. His answer was similar to yours, a "what couldn't they do?" answer. Turns out they never found an answer, and got acquired for their technology without ever turning into a real business.

As somebody who used to write software for financial traders, it's not clear to me that removing clearing houses is a step forward. They provide important services. And I'm even more skeptical that allowing randos to trade in opaque, unregulated assets is a good idea. Music industry actors, for example, have decades of experience in creative accounting and screwing people over. Real estate has a strong caveat emptor tradition, and property management companies are not exactly a watchword for fair dealing. So from you description, I'm mainly imagining people all over the world getting fleeced with no practical legal recourse.

As best I can tell, the cryptocurrency space seems hell-bent on rediscovering why strong markets and government oversight exist in the first place. The only demonstrated market advantage Bitcoin has in a decade of operation is in light financial crime like money laundering, capital control evasion, ponzi schemes, ransom payments, and outright theft.

I do hope these technologies turn out to be useful for something. But the "imagine the possibilities" routine worked much better when there was less of a track record. Now I'd rather examine the actualities.

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#359

Post by Triv888 »

speedgoose wrote: post #158
Triv888 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever tried to cash a foreign check? Not that easy... You have to go to the bank to do it unlike any regular check... Also it is easier to move large amount of crypto then cash (even when both are digital.

In my opinion, moving a large amount of money using crypto currencies, legally and without risks, it not easy for most people. I would say it's a lot harder than going to the bank and letting them manage the transactions database.

Cryptos are not considered currencies under the current laws so I dont see how it would be a problem, legally....

Re: Ethereum 2.0 launches

#360

Post by carleverett »

deathcakes wrote: post #183
markkat wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes me sad, because I expected a comment like this to be the highest on HN. In the case of Ethereum, digital scarcity secured by a blockchain enables a turing complete state machine that the world can use. In the most basic terms, this will remove clearing houses for transactions of assets. In the long term this will lead to novel types of assets, and make ownership extremely liquid. Imagine using your phone to…

"In the long term this will lead to novel types of assets, and make ownership extremely liquid. Imagine using your phone to buy shares in a recording artist you just discovered, and selling those shares when they win a grammy." I'm sorry but I really totally fail to see what is appealing about this future hellscape where literally every aspect of our lives is transacted, monetised and profitable. What is good about t…

I highly recommend "A Blank Slate of State" by Chris Burniske: https://unchainedpodcast.com/chris-burniske-a-blank-slate-of...

He makes the same argument that I think you're making, that these new types of "more accessible" financial markets in crypto can corrupt people if they only use it to seek out money for money's sake.

TLDR: it's a tool, that can be used for good or for bad, but like any tool it's better to have it than not.

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