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A tech antitrust problem no one is talking about: US broadband providers

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Re: A tech antitrust problem no one is talking about: US broadband providers

#351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The ISP's never got "$200 billion" in the 1990's. That's a total made up number, based on taking what ISP profits would >have been had they been regulated as a utility, and calling everything over that "money given to ISPs." >The premise of deregulation was that it would lead to increased infrastructure spending. And it has: the late 1990's and >the 2000's saw massive investment into cable and wireless. People assum…

Thank you for this comment. You haven't sold me, but I'm sure you've sold other people reading this thread. I read your two cites as well. I have two small points in response. First: I ran tech operations (as employee #2) at what became Chicago's most popular independent ISP, in the mid-to-late 1990s, and had a similar "front row seat" to that sector. And I'll say right now that the claim that "deregulation killed th…

> >"deregulation killed the independent ISP" does not at all ring true. Economies of scale is part of it, but so >was consolidated billing, coax Internet, "triple play" packages, and wireless. Also, the market just >consolidated; even among the indie ISPs, by the end of the 90s, everyone was doing roll-ups.

We were the survey firm and did the analysis for multiple ISP associations, and we worked with the indie ISPs and CLECs, as well as with Small Business Administration's Office of Adovcacy. In the 1990's, at least, there was no triple play. the cable companies had not offered voice, or even broadband with any seriousness. AT&T was an indie and started bundling local and long distance, and wireless wasn't even on the radar as a broadband service.

And we filed complaints with the FCC, AG and state commissions because about 40% of the orders placed by an independent didn't go through -- harming the ISP but also pissing off their customers https://newnetworks.com/baadslscrewisp.htm

And in 2001, we wrote an impact study, quoted by SBA about the lack of FCC enforcement, and the fact that the wired companies were stealing the ISP customers, that the orders weren't going through, that it took weeks to get orders, that there was preferential (illegal) treatment of the companies' own ISP,

https://newnetworks.com/smallbusinessimpactstudy.html

(these links still work....) And how bad was it for those seeking justice from the regulators? Dave Robertson, the head of the Texas ISP Association, recounted his recent meeting with Chairman Powell and senior staffers at the FCC Enforcement Bureau.

"The meeting was Tuesday May 8th. In a nutshell, all the "bad acts" submitted to them to date have resulted in exactly "ZERO" dollars in fines, and little delay in their 271 approvals for the Bells to jump into the long distance market. We asked for something blatant as handwriting on a wall as to the future of the complaint process as we are approaching it. We got it. WE SHOULD EXPECT NOTHING FROM THE INFORMAL COMPLAINT PROCESS. We should expect nothing from any complaints we have submitted to date.

"A couple of weeks ago we met with a senior person in the ENFORCEMENT BUREAU. After a one-hour meeting and receiving some heartfelt empathy for the plight of ISPs and the consumers who are being victimized by the illegal, anti-competitive behavior, I suggested that our best move might be to just jump out a window. He suggested we might want to consider throwing a chair out of the window first, so we wouldn't get cut on the glass as we jumped."

So, yeah, wireless and the triple play? -- had the networks been open, would the independent ISPs used the networks to offer these other services? AT&T and MCI at the time were large enough, as was AOL and other ISPs like Earthlink could have, probably would have.

I agree there was consolidation -- but, when the FCC got rid of line sharing and refused to address the litany of charges against the telcos who controlled the wires, -- but worse, the companies lied about deployments and took the money --didn't upgrade their networks to fiber as paid for by local phone customers --- we were put on a path where those who control the wires killed off most of the competition.

>Second, while the additional detail you've provided here is interesting, you really haven't engaged Rayiner's >central argument, which is that however many billions of dollars you're saying telcos were "given" to build >fiber, you're just counting dollars in their prices that you think are unreasonable. Which is not what people >people on HN typically mean when they cite this "200 billion dollar scandal".

Arrgh. While we did track price increases, which shouldn’t have happened as they were based on supposedly using the extra cash to upgrade their aging copper infrastructure --- we didn’t use price increases for our overall calculations

We examined multiple states' plans as well as the data that the FCC collected, as well as other groups that since stopped including NARUC, BEllCORE, and state and federal filings by the companies.

but-- I'll play... The incumbent utilities are regulated, because they control critical infrastructure, get use of the rights of way, and had requirements to deploy fiber--based on their own filings and commitments made.

READ THESE: we quoted other analysts Here’s testimony by ETI about Verizon PA fiber plans and monies collected – (ironically funded by AT&T against Verizon,-- before the networks were closed and AT&T and MCI were put up for sale and AT&T was taken over by SBC http://www.teletruth.org/docs/LLS%20PA%20Senate%20Testimony%... This is a scathing review of the first 5 years of the Verizon NJ ( Bell Atlantic – 1997) by the New Jersey consumer advocate. https://web.archive.org/web/20160429003841/http://www.rpa.st...

It’s clear no one has read the original source materials – We covered a) depreciation, b) return on equity, c) dividends paid d) extraneus deductions charged to the state, e) growth in lines, minutes, revenues, expenses, corporate operations expenses, marketing, employees, etc –

So, as a group the telcos took $25 billion in tax deductions when they claimed that they were replacing the copper… didn’t do it. The state freed their profits so nationwide it went from 12-14% Return on Equity to 29% on average—but they were still monopolies and no direct wireline or wireless competition. And again, this was supposed to be used for fiber. The overcharging, then was comparing the commitments against the excess billions the companies-state utilities- got from the changes in state laws was supposed to be used for construction, not buying companies overseas.

And when $200 billion was written, no telco had done the work but all got billions. FiOS and U-Verse were announced in 2004 specifically to close the networks—claiming it was harming investments – when, we, the people, were the investors, which the FCC, etc never recognized.

Re: A tech antitrust problem no one is talking about: US broadband providers

#352
post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have had horrendous experienced with Waste Management on three occasions. Moving out of the neighborhood they had a city-enforced monopoly on was the only solution (granted, i moved for other reasons, but getting someone else was a delight all its own).

But in this case the remedy is head to your local town hall and start complaining. The "monopoly" is usually a 5ish year contract that the city sends out for bids. I'd love the ability to head to city hall and convince local leaders to switch from Comcast to X.

This was back when I was living in a large suburb. The whole place was divided among a half-dozen or so trash companies. I might have complained, but moving was a whole lot easier than waiting 5 years to maybe get a change.

Before the monopolies were granted, people could pick their own haulers. The monopolies were granted to cut down on truck traffic- the fact that WM took iver my street was evidence enough that one complaint would not dislodge them.

You might actually have more luck with complaining about your internet service. The rural area I moved to only had DSL, and the quality was so bad the town threatened to kick the carrier out if they didnt improve. Instead, they agreed to lay fiber to the entire service area, and it was only about a year after I moved in that we got it. (Way overpriced for full gigabit, of course, but thats rural internet).

Re: A tech antitrust problem no one is talking about: US broadband providers

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for this comment. You haven't sold me, but I'm sure you've sold other people reading this thread. I read your two cites as well. I have two small points in response. First: I ran tech operations (as employee #2) at what became Chicago's most popular independent ISP, in the mid-to-late 1990s, and had a similar "front row seat" to that sector. And I'll say right now that the claim that "deregulation killed th…

> >"deregulation killed the independent ISP" does not at all ring true. Economies of scale is part of it, but so >was consolidated billing, coax Internet, "triple play" packages, and wireless. Also, the market just >consolidated; even among the indie ISPs, by the end of the 90s, everyone was doing roll-ups. We were the survey firm and did the analysis for multiple ISP associations, and we worked with the indie ISPs a…

Thank you for taking the time to respond to this, I have learned quite a bit from this thread.

Re: A tech antitrust problem no one is talking about: US broadband providers

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally agree at a local/municipal scale but that generally doesn't scale well and is often relatively unstable if it is not operated as an mostly isolated entity given the strong conflict of interest of officials involved easily and often leads to regulating private industry out of existence.

Where do you see that being the case with broadband? There are many examples of private sector monopolies, but I've never heard of private sector broadband being regulated out of existence.

For telco stuff specifically it's more that local governments love to rentseek from the incumbents. The faustian bargain is that the telcos pony up and in exchange the government, usually local, makes it nearly impossible for new players to enter. Some of those policies might end up making it harder for them to operate but it's harder still for competitors. The same is true when hospital networks try to expand beyond state lines. The reasoning goes if I can't expand why should they?
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