How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry • Hacker News Board

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#351

Post by ThrowawayR2 » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 4:08 PM UTC

TT3351 wrote: post #135

eplanit wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are the antithesis of a meritocracy. Try promoting based on seniority over merit in a tech. business, and I doubt you'll stay competitive for very long. I don't know if kickstarter counts as a pure "tech company". They use technology, but they don't create it. Their customers are activists, so it's not surprising that their employees are, too.

Whenever I see "meritocracy" used like this, my hair stands on end. From Wikipedia: "Although the concept has existed for centuries, the term "meritocracy" is relatively new. It was used pejoratively by British politician and sociologist Michael Dunlop Young in his 1958 satirical essay The Rise of the Meritocracy, which pictured the United Kingdom under the rule of a government favouring intelligence and aptitude (me…

"Meritocracy was meant as a satire" is brought up as a rebuttal frequently but it's somehow never accompanied by an explanation of how the negatives Young brings up are relevant to the topic at hand. Based on a cursory search, a summary of Young's point in his satire seems to be that meritocracy had the undesirable consequences of demeaning/devaluing those who scored poorly on measures of merit and also triggering a societal arms race as people did whatever they could to improve their own and their children's measured merit, neither of which is salient to this discussion. He doesn't seem to say that meritocracy itself was ineffective. (Somebody please correct me if I am in error here.)

It's also worth noting that the same Wikipedia article that the parent poster points to says that the concept of meritocracy predates Young's coining of the word by centuries and also details its history of successful application by many societies in various eras.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#352

Post by vangelis » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 4:41 PM UTC

smithcoin wrote: post #334

bsenftner wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American style capitalism has polluted the mental models of anyone raised in the States to disregard European management styles and by extension the successful European work life balance, to the US citizens' significant determent. The work-life balance in Europe is more of a life worth living, while the life styles in the United States require double incomes to participate, are so heavily marketed it rendered everyth…

I’m sorry you feel that way.

Not an argument.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#353

Post by Apocryphon » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 4:43 PM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #281

skitout wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure there are some horror stories about unions, but you are just generalizing. And you are talking about "old" institutions ; new unions, for "new" kind of companies would not look the same. Having an organization that can help a worker that is abused, or giving more bargaining power to workers seems clearly positive for the worker. That could be a bit more irritating for the top management ... But the German exampl…

> but you are just generalizing No he's not. Every unionized workplace I have been in from educational institutions to government departments to defense contractors is like this to a pretty large extent. >But the German example Yes, I know that European unions are different and not nearly as asinine as American ones but I have yet to hear anyone say that tech will get European style unions let alone a good argument f…

> but I have yet to hear anyone say that tech will get European style unions let alone a good argument for why this will happen

Well, it's good that discussions like this are happening because it spreads awareness that there are better models for unions from abroad, and perhaps that will get more people agitating for an union that's different from the traditional American kind.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#354

Post by Apocryphon » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 4:51 PM UTC

627467 wrote: post #280

skitout wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are super handsome, rich, smart and young, it is easier for you than most people to find another girlfriend / boyfriend... but you still want to have influence of the big decision inside your couple, you don't want to be abused...

Following that metaphor: the way I see US tech sector is akin to people in their twenties, prioritizing individual experiences and growth and postponing settling with anyone for now. Plus: who do you unionse with in a couple? If the point is to avoid abuse from the other part? If I want to have big say in an organization I become a shareholder (ie. Buy the ring) which, for many tech workers that is true (through stoc…

People grow up and their options become constrained. This industry will too. And will you then regret not having made different choices earlier?

Shareholder voices have become increasingly weakened in recent years, and not just at Facebook either.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/control-geeks-tech-founders-wan...

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/27/business/dealbook/lyft-ip...

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#355

Post by benmller313 » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 4:55 PM UTC

PeterStuer wrote: post #271

abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

Many reasons: - The typical 'pains' felt in the lopsided power relation between employer and employee were and often still are cushioned by the adequate compensation in a market where the sought after skills were in short supply - Tech attracts an atypical more autism spectrum biased employee pool. This correlates with meritocratic believes. - Tech culture is one that has always idolized 'passion', so objecting to ba…

Maybe I'm just super autistic (Or as you say, atypical and more autism spectrum biased), but what are arguments against a meritocracy in the workplace?

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#356

Post by Apocryphon » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 4:55 PM UTC

m12k wrote: post #335

x87678r wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hollywood unions are one of the main reasons most movies are not made in LA any more.

Sure, and tax havens are the most popular place to have the top of your corporation's ownership hierarchy. Doesn't mean it's good for society at large or the people working there.

And speaking of tax havens, it's also likely why a lot of movies are now made in cities like Vancouver is because those places decided to give favorable tax incentives for films to be shot there. So it's not really because of unions.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#357

Post by benmller313 » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 4:59 PM UTC

heavyset_go wrote: post #84

dpc_pw wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are just another idea that sounds great on paper, only if you don't consider second and third order effects. They don't serve the workers, they serve themselves (like pretty much any organization). Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. Many software companies offer equity, which makes employers the shareholders.…

> Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power Nonsense. Adobe, Apple, Google, Intel, Intuit, Pixar, Lucasfilm and eBay all colluded with each other to keep tech worker compensation below its market rate[1]. Good luck negotiating a group health plan that an employer buys as a single employee. > Given all that I personally think the downsides of unions in tech…

That wage collusion was illegal and a lawsuit was won on it. I feel like there isnt a disparity when the parties follow the law.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#358

Post by gamblor956 » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 5:07 PM UTC

greggman3 wrote: post #243

abeppu wrote: post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

This is what you'll get with unions https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5a_00YVVkQ&feature=youtu.be... My experience with unions. Monitor breaks at CES. Go get another, try to carry to booth. Get stopped because "only union people are allowed to carry equipment inside the convention center". Try to plug in some equipment. Get stopped because "only union electricians are allowed to plug in equipment in the convention cen…

I'll raise you one. My experience with unions:

- (Movie) set breaks. The guys from the appropriate union are working on a different part of the set and can't get away to fix it, so the camera guys (in a different union) fixes the break. They all have a beer afterwards, and the movie made $200M+ at the box office.

- Unionized grocery store. Jar spills onto the floor. The janitor is doing the COVID19 sanitation rounds, so the first employee to see the mess grabs a mop and cleans it up, even though it's not part of her job description.

Moral of the story: unions are what their members make of them. Some of them are deliberately and highly restrictive about scope of duties, but most of them are not.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#359

Post by benmller313 » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 5:07 PM UTC

doggosphere wrote: post #101

dpc_pw wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are just another idea that sounds great on paper, only if you don't consider second and third order effects. They don't serve the workers, they serve themselves (like pretty much any organization). Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. Many software companies offer equity, which makes employers the shareholders.…

They don't serve the workers, they serve themselves (like pretty much any organization). Unions are owned/compromised of workers. Workers vote on issues that affect them. Tech workers are in so much demand that they don't really suffer such a disparity of negotiating power, like workers in other industries. Absolutely true, but if demand wasn't so high and supply wasn't so short, what happens to worker leverage and t…

The reason pro sports leagues are all unionized is because they are each government sanctioned monopolies and players have otherwise no leverage.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#360

Post by skitout » Thu, Oct 08, 2020, 5:16 PM UTC

627467 wrote: post #280

skitout wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are super handsome, rich, smart and young, it is easier for you than most people to find another girlfriend / boyfriend... but you still want to have influence of the big decision inside your couple, you don't want to be abused...

Following that metaphor: the way I see US tech sector is akin to people in their twenties, prioritizing individual experiences and growth and postponing settling with anyone for now. Plus: who do you unionse with in a couple? If the point is to avoid abuse from the other part? If I want to have big say in an organization I become a shareholder (ie. Buy the ring) which, for many tech workers that is true (through stoc…

Union can help to fight abuse in the workplace, does this seems to you irrelevant to tech workers ?

If I understand you comment, you are against the fact that workers should have a say in an organization ??? That only shareholders could have a say ???