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Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

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Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#351

Post by drspacemonkey »

sitkack wrote: post #319
drspacemonkey wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't be so quick to jump to the conclusion that they were _actually_ union. They may very well have been. But companies have a long, proud history of playing VERY dirty tricks in response to unionization. A former boss of mine once bragged about how he killed a union effort at a previous job. He worked a corporate job for a chain of restaurants that was threatening to unionize. He was given the task of showing…

Pretty sure his actions were actually illegal. https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/the-law/em... > Supervisors and managers cannot spy on you (or make it appear that they are doing so), coercively question you, threaten you or bribe you regarding your union activity or the union activities of your co-workers. You can't be fired, disciplined, demoted, or penalized in any way for engaging in these activit…

Well, then that would be the first and only time that jackass did something skeezy and illegal

Seriously though, that man's sense of ethics were... well, when he first found out about the GDPR, his first and only question was "how do we circumvent this?" There's a bunch of reasons why he's a FORMER boss.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#352

Post by civilized »

Bemused at the knee-jerk downvotes against anyone who has an opinion on unions in EITHER direction.

As in so many internet spaces, partisan zealots are degrading our ability to converse. I hope the mods figure out how to keep them from turning HN into yet another dunghole.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#353

Post by Kalium »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #197
cactus2093 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're talking about union education as if it's equivalent to mathematics or something, like there is an absolute truth to be learned. Surely even the most pro-union people would acknowledge that not every implementation of a union is equivalent? And that some have caused harm? I would say I'm union agnostic, I'm not against them but I have about the same amount of faith that a union will improve things in a given si…

The government isn’t a good comparison. Unions hold no illusions about acting in the interests of the general public. Their express purpose is to protect the members of the union, even if that comes at the expense of the general public. Police unions defending corrupt police and ensuring they can collect expensive public-funded pensions after blatant misconduct against the public is a prime example.

I routinely see people postulate that unions act primarily in the interests of the general public. Unions may not claim that, but at least some of their supporters do.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#354

Post by [deleted] »

davewritescode wrote: post #140
motohagiography wrote: post #15

Why would Amazon want to prevent workers from unionizing? Look what it did for teaching, policing, mail delivery, port security, taxi driving, waste management, public service, and construction.

Some unions are in fact quite useful. For example, non-union electricians are often asked to do dangerous work and often have little to no recourse. Truck drivers also have unions and its one of the reasons that driving a truck is still a profession that can provide a good quality of life for its workers. Nobody complains about UPS, and every driver is a Teamster. Public unions are somewhat problematic, I'll give you…

[deleted]

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#355

Post by Clubber »

badRNG wrote: post #143
tehjoker wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone that likes the New Deal should thank the union organizers and socialists that literally had to fight police in the streets to force the hand of the state. A large enough faction of the capitalists back then agreed to reforms because they feared things were going the way of revolution. In the 1930s, the 1917 revolution in Russia was a recent memory that scared the piss out of them. Bezos would like to continu…

While I don't think getting bogged down in a political discussion here is a good idea (and I don't necessarily disagree,) I do think it is interesting how ignorant Americans often are of the many literal battles in the war for humane working conditions. It might be worth reading about how workers were bombed and gunned down during the labor movement (late 19th, early 20th centuries) in the US, notably the Battle of B…

That's one of the origins of the term "red neck."

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#356

Post by PeterisP »

kergonath wrote: post #322
stale2002 wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah. I think I am pretty ok will calling someone who does this a murderer. That is totally fine in my book to call them that.

Murder requires intent...

Well, they did intend to drop the concrete block on his car, the block wasn't dropped by accident or through their gross negligence (in which case it would be manslaughter).

Murder does require intent, but it does not necessarily require an intent to kill that person; if you intend to "just" assault a person but they die, that's murder; if you intend to kill someone but kill someone else whom you did not intend to kill, that's murder.

"extreme indifference to human life" (again, intentional) is generally considered murder - e.g. if you'd intentionally burn down your neighbour's house without knowing or caring if anyone's inside, then if someone dies, it's considered murder. And UK, where the incident happened, has the concept of felony-murder where any death (even if accidental) that happens in the process of felony can be considered murder, because the felony that endangered people's lives was intentional.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#357

Post by PeterisP »

kergonath wrote: post #332
MrStonedOne wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My view is that laws must keep unions from acting in bad faith before forced unions can be allowed to exist. The primary positive effect of a union is its appeals process that keep employers from firing you on a whim. Nothing about that positive effect requires the union be forced upon you, and if unions had to earn their dues they wouldn't act in bad faith as often.

In which actual country is forced unionisation a thing? It sounds more like stupid local laws than a flaw in the concept of trade unions.

Unions can (and, if they're strong and it's not prohibited, often do) make collective agreements with the employer that mandate that the employer will not be permitted to employ non-union workers for these jobs. In a "closed union shop" you'd be required to join the union when you're hired, and if you would not join or if you would get kicked out of the union, the employer would have to fire you. This is pretty much 'forced unionisation'.

Another possible part of such collective agreements is that the employer will withhold union dues and hand them to the union no matter if the employee wants to join or not; to prevent the 'free rider' effect where some employees get the benefits of collective bargaining without paying for the representation (the appropriateness of this argument can be debated, but that's at least the stated intent).

In about half of USA ("right to work" states) such agreements are illegal, and in about half of USA unions can have such practices.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#358

Post by mf_tomb »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #197
cactus2093 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're talking about union education as if it's equivalent to mathematics or something, like there is an absolute truth to be learned. Surely even the most pro-union people would acknowledge that not every implementation of a union is equivalent? And that some have caused harm? I would say I'm union agnostic, I'm not against them but I have about the same amount of faith that a union will improve things in a given si…

The government isn’t a good comparison. Unions hold no illusions about acting in the interests of the general public. Their express purpose is to protect the members of the union, even if that comes at the expense of the general public. Police unions defending corrupt police and ensuring they can collect expensive public-funded pensions after blatant misconduct against the public is a prime example.

Most unions try to act in solidarity with labor in general, through organizations like the IWW and the AFL-CIO. Police unions aren't labor unions, as the role of police in society is to enforce the current capital distribution. This is counter to the goals of the rest of the labor movement, and there's currently a push to boot the IUPA from the AFL-CIO.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#359

Post by manicdee »

chrisseaton wrote: post #81
smnrchrds wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you call them goons? Politicians, activists, all sorts of people go door knocking around the time of elections and referendums. What made this interaction so different that you call them goons sent there to intimidate you, not activists trying to attract your vote?

Union activists in the UK have a reputation of being bullies, and in some cases in the past they've used physical violence to try to get people to do things their way. At the height of union fever back in the 80s it got so bad at one point that union activists dropped a concrete block on someone's head from a bridge because he was trying to get into work and they thought he should be striking (David Wilkie.) I would…

Condemning all unions because some stupid idiots dropped a concrete block one someone? Are you a Pinkerton?

As for the union "goons" well it's safe to assume that the people doorknocking are going to be the ones who haven't been driven away by random verbal and physical attacks.

Re: Amazon deletes job listings for analysts to track ‘labor organizing threats’

#360

Post by Avshalom »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #156
wnevets wrote: post #78

Whenever unions are mentioned on HN there always seems to be a coordinated effort to attack them in the comments, very interesting.

I doubt it’s a conspiracy or organized comment ring. The popular narrative around unions is one of the employees versus their employer, but ultimately even the business’ customers or adjacent businesses end up paying some of the price. For an example that will probably hit home for many HN users, try asking your trade show team about dealing with unions. The restrictions imposed by unions on trade show attendees are…

Which is to say the company made you guys do all the work instead of paying people to do it for you.
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